61. Unlock the secret to beating imposter syndrome in branding

Final Transcripts of Sarah Robb (Part 2) on the Unicorny Podcast 

PLEASE NOTE: This transcript has been created using fireflies.ai – a transcription service. It has not been edited by a human and therefore may contain mistakes. 

00:03: Rachel Fairley 

Welcome to Unicorny.  

This is a podcast about the business of marketing, how to create value and how you can help your business win the future. And I'm your guest host, Rachel Fairley.  

Welcome back. This is part two of our discussion around marketing Jargon and how to untangle ourselves from it. We're with brand strategist Sarah Robb, who's dedicated her career out of chopping her way through the terminology forest to help brands see and say the stuff that matters to customers and employees. In part one, we covered where jargon comes from and how to bust it by simply answering the big questions like why your brand exists. We understood that being distinct was far more important than being different. And satisfyingly for many listeners, I'm sure we agreed a company's purpose doesn't have to save the planet. Where we're going next is imposter syndrome.  

01:00: Rachel Fairley 

It turns out that almost all of us are so confused by the frameworks and the jargon and the models, even though we've been doing this our entire careers. Why is that and what can we do about it? Imposter syndrome. What is the relationship, do you think, between imposter syndrome and jargon?  

01:21: Sarah Robb 

One thing to say is that imposter syndrome is something that 70% of all adults claim to experience. So it's not a shameful thing. I think it's often a marker, and it's often associated with high achievers. Lady Gaga, Tom Hanks, Einstein, Michelle Obama, they've all expressed imposter syndrome. So first of all, if you're sitting there feeling it, listening to this, please don't beat yourself up. It is correlated with high achievers because it's about wanting to better and wanting to be confident and wanting to know what you're doing. I think the link to the jargon piece is that it creates this haze of feeling like you don't know what you're doing because you don't understand what these terms are all about and which ones you should be using. And I think that in turn relates to control.  

02:04: Sarah Robb 

You don't feel in control of what it is fundamentally that you've got, that you're building in marketing or with your brand. I run a how to beat imposter syndrome webinar for people who take brand strategy academy, which is me teaching people how to do brand strategy. It gets by far the highest amount of signups and the course does. And what happens with the course, when I ask people coming in, what is it that you find most confusing and challenging about brand strategy? Always jargon. About 75% of all my answers to that question, of over 250 people is the jargon, the models, the frameworks, the terminology. Again and again, it's holding people back from taking control of their careers. In some, they want to be able to offer brand strategy. Marketers want to be in control of the brand strategy.  

02:56: Sarah Robb 

But the jargon and the models and the frameworks, it's holding people back. And that's a shame.  

03:00: Rachel Fairley 

I've had moments in my career where I felt so stupid that I wanted the earth to swallow me up because somebody's talking about something and I'm thinking, I just don't understand. I don't understand.  

03:13: Sarah Robb 

We've all felt that for the first decade, I had a huge sense of imposter syndrome when it came to brand strategy. Even if you'd looked at what I was doing, I was a senior brand strategist for a brand strategy agency, done hundreds of projects. It did come down to this niggle about what is it that we actually need to do? And why don't I really know that and how? I have not been trained in this. And I think once you've done a bit of time and you've done a massive study, like I had to do, I mean, the study was to help my imposter syndrome. Absolutely. To make me feel confident that, oh, okay, this is actually what you need to do here. And I think part of it is challenging people on the jug and they spout at you.  

03:57: Sarah Robb 

You know, if you're a marketer, you're in a room. It doesn't matter how old the people are who are spouting this theory about their model, you know, really get them to explain it. Challenge them. If you don't understand it, challenge them, because likely they may not understand it either. And then you can take more control of the situation. Say, well, for our brand, for my organization, we are going to talk about it in this way because the CEO will use this language, and I understand this, and I can train my marketers on it. So just take that word off your pyramid. Let's just say, call it how we do things around here, and let's answer the questions together with bright brains in the room.  

04:36: Rachel Fairley 

What does that do then to the relationships with other departments? Like, if you're a marketer and you're talking to finance or talking to procurement or talking to ops or any of the beloved kind of cousins around the business, right?  

04:50: Sarah Robb 

Everyone will get challenged. Why do we need to do this? What does it give me in my department? How is this going to help sales? How is this going to. And so if you aren't sure, you know, then you have this sort of house of sand, and it all just sort of falls apart, right? If you can't ground it and talk consistently and explain why you need what you need. And I think, I mean, you probably know better than I. I mean, you've been CMO. You've had to have so many of those conversations, and, you know, what have you found?  

05:16: Rachel Fairley 

For me, it's all about the answers to the questions. You know, if I can sit down with a finance leader and say to them, look, we just fundamentally need to all agree what we're selling, and we need to agree why you would choose us. And you can talk about, like, category entry points. I'm totally in love with category entry points. Because when you speak to a finance person, you go, look, there are eleven reasons in this market why people come shopping and they got it? You go, we're not associated with any of those reasons. They go, okay. And you say, so when we're not easy to mind, they don't think of us in a buying situation, which means we can't sell anything because they're not even considering us. And your finance colleagues going, yes, got it.  

05:54: Rachel Fairley 

And suddenly you have people on side, because if they can understand it and they can explain it to their colleagues, and they go, well, marketing's doing this. They'll be ready in three months, and it will hit the ground running. You're in a different world if you turn up going, well, we're just working on the essence, and we're going to redo the essence, and then we're going to look at what the personality of the brand is like. You actually like, you can watch the eyes. Like, you just see people shut down in front of you.  

06:22: Sarah Robb 

And I think that whole glazed eye thing is a big thing. And it's such a call out for agencies listening to this, too, right, that I remember one of those triggers for me leaving, actually, was standing in front of Novartis oncology and telling them they needed a visual brand driver.  

06:41: Rachel Fairley 

Slightly inside.  

06:42: Sarah Robb 

I slightly died inside. And up to that point, you know, I'd been working on Smirnoff and Don Julio Tequila and this intuition, a razor, where there was a packaging design challenge at the end of it, and this visual brand driver made some sense. But because it was a model that the agency had to push, I had to go into Novartis, who were talking about this very complicated thing about, how should we talk about the difference between our profit making cancer drugs and our oncology research and foundation. And should these two things be separate, how they, should they be linked? It was a brand architecture and question, and it was a question about how you really expressed what both sides of the business did.  

07:30: Sarah Robb 

They did not need a visual brand driver grid with a dolphin on it, you know, and I think that's just a little bit of a marker for any independent person out there who's trying to push a model. Be very wary of how far your model should stretch. If you have one, you know, and it's helping you sell. I get it. But just be aware of, you know, those glazed looks in the room, because it's a sign you're not going to get anywhere with that project or the brand work is going to just live on a PowerPoint in a folder and not influence the business. And then surely you've failed.  

08:09: Rachel Fairley 

Makes me smile to hear about Sarah talking about the effect of marketing jobs jargon on us. Even experienced prose. Time and time again, I find myself saying to people, could you say that again using different words, or can you tell me the question to which that's the answer? I find that if I do that, eventually I get to some kind of truth and then I actually know whether I need it or not. Speaking plainly is best practice in communications, and I think brand leaders can show their mastery of their subject through the ease by which they communicate it. To paraphrase Einstein, if you can't explain it simply enough, you haven't understood it well enough. Okay, enough said. Let's get back to the studio. One question I've always asked myself is brand and marketing actually this complex?  

09:04: Rachel Fairley 

I do have moments where I'm supremely confident, but then I also have moments where I think, why do I think this is so straightforward? And everybody else thinks this is really complicated?  

09:16: Sarah Robb 

It's the jargon.  

09:17: Rachel Fairley 

It is the jargon.  

09:19: Sarah Robb 

It's not that complicated. The fundamental things you have to do, you know, the list of things, you know, how a brand needs to be, what you need to do, they are very easy to understand once you strip the jargon out. Now, doing it across a very complicated, large organization and hitting all of the customers you need to hit, you know, there's the complication. And doing it with creativity, that's what agency is a brilliant at, bringing in emotion. These things that, you know, have a disproportionate impact on whether your brand gets logged in people memory, all of this, that's hard, you know, but actually the fundamentals of how does your brand need to be? What are those core aspects. And then what do you need to do?  

10:02: Sarah Robb 

You know, be easy to mine, be easy to buy, understand category entry points, be relevant, be different, be credible. These are the questions you need to answer. Why are we here? What do we do? That shouldn't be the complicated part, you know, and I think that it's been made that part of it has been made to be complicated through language, and it's holding people back, and that's a shame.  

10:23: Rachel Fairley 

Yeah, I will remember that every time I have an imposter syndrome moment. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna do the. Chuck out the jargon. Don't you feel better already?  

10:30: Sarah Robb 

Very wise.  

10:33: Rachel Fairley 

A worry for the 20 somethings as well, because they go in and they learn marketing, and they learn it in a very strategic, quite academic way, and then they're thrown in the deep end at what is often like managing social media or coordinating events, or, you know, kind of something completely unrelated from the kind of theoretical strategic side that they have done, which is invaluable. But then often they find out their organization doesn't even do that anyway, that their marketing department is sort of dusting off last year's plan or putting together lots of tactics and calling that the plan. I think it can be really tricky. But there's definitely a move in this sort of latest generation out of university to get more vocational training. And I do worry about how connected the vocational training is to the practice of marketing in businesses.  

11:23: Rachel Fairley 

And then if you learn lots of different models and different names and different techniques and stuff, then, yeah, I worry. I do worry that it's over complex and it's not as complicated as it appears. I'd love to hear from people listening. If you have found ways of bringing in that new talent, once it's emerged from marketing education, how do you actually get those people into a position of real confidence and control over being able to practice what they've learned and not end up in the weeds sort of managing software. I'd love to hear some examples of how you've done that, because I think we can all do that better and better as leaders.  

12:03: Sarah Robb 

The other side to that is also there is a point where you will leap in your career as you move up marketing, when you won't be managing a tactic, then suddenly you will be senior enough, where you will be in charge of a brand refresh, or a brand reinvigoration or a rebrand. You know, you call it what you will again, jargon. Jargon. At the point where something needs to change at the strategic level, around the brand. And if you haven't been grounded in what that really means and a simple way of working through that, then that can be very overwhelming. And then you do tend to lean very heavily on outside help, which is fine if it's the right help, and it doesn't sort of take you down this jargon track again.  

12:46: Sarah Robb 

So I think knowing and having the confidence about how you manage one of those processes of refreshing, reinvigorating, rebranding is very key. And I think that isn't taught so much in marketing degrees. The best courses, they have maybe one semester or one session on brand strategy, and then they move on. And I think that's a piece which is missing a bit.  

13:10: Rachel Fairley 

What's the advice?  

13:12: Sarah Robb 

I think the advice is to make sure you clearly understand the fundamentals, make sure you answer the questions for your business, for your organization. So just go back and just whatever these labels are, strip them out and understand. Have you got the answers to these core questions? Why do we exist? Who are we and how do we do things? What do we do and how should our brand look, feel and sound? Have you answered those? Call them whatever you feel is most culturally appropriate to your organization and the way that the leadership team will talk about it.  

13:46: Sarah Robb 

So if you are in the process of redoing these things, don't shy away from calling it spirit versus values or beliefs versus values or, you know, go with what you know, naturally supports that organization and the way that the CEO will stand up and talk about it, because it doesn't matter what the label is, it matters that you answer the questions. Don't have overlapping terminology. I think that's one of the things you really need to avoid. So if there's a vision somewhere else in the company, goals and it's a sort of financial metric, vision, do not create a brand vision as well because that causes all sorts of confusion. So make sure your labels aren't overlapping in any way or repetitive, and take control of it.  

14:27: Sarah Robb 

I would say particularly if you're running a brand strategy project, as a marketer, I wouldn't outsource the whole thing. I would really sort of take control of what you want this to look like, how you want it to be written up, what the labels are that you want to have used. And don't be afraid to push back and say, it's fine that you as an organization want a so and so brand truth matrix, but we don't. So, you know, answer the questions for us like you would in your model, but we'll just be calling them these things, and then you will be able to talk about that internally much easier.  

15:02: Rachel Fairley 

So, Sarah, I know you and I are working on a book at the moment. I think my motivation is basically that I've spent 20 odd years trying to figure out how to do this, and I don't want anyone else to have to go through that.  

15:13: Sarah Robb 

And that is exactly mine.  

15:15: Rachel Fairley 

Yeah, I can see the finish line. Are you finding it cathartic?  

15:22: Sarah Robb 

Oh, gosh, so cathartic. I think trying to put down as clearly and simply as possible exactly what you need to do to build a brand and to reinvigorate a brand has just been a pleasure. And I really hope it will help people get over any sense of imposter syndrome, whether they are marketers or whether they're working in agencies, or whether they're independent strategists. I think this will really help.  

15:46: Rachel Fairley 

I love how it feels like it's writing itself. It's actually quite grueling, isn't it? But you have to make sure you actually write it because it doesn't write itself. But the mix of kind of theory digested. So what you need to know from the academia and the thought leadership that's around, and then the kind of pragmatism of just start at the beginning, just work your way through like this and you'll be fine. But also that things go wrong, you'll need these plan B's. And if you have no time, money and resource, then here's a way to shortcut it.  

16:18: Rachel Fairley 

Like I'm saying to my son, like, I really hope that it's the kind of book where it has a broken spine and sits on people's desks kind of slightly dog eared, because it's what I wish I'd had the last 20 years, is that sort of, here's what you need to do, and here's how you'll know you're doing it right.  

16:33: Sarah Robb 

Yeah, me too. And the connection between the brand to the marketing side. You know, often you have to pick up different books to figure out how one connects to the other. And there is, you know, there isn't that linear story of, okay, you do this and then you do this and this is how you approach it and these are the questions you need to ask. And this is what you do next. And I think it's lovely to have that whole journey from actual creation of the brand strategy all the way through.  

16:58: Rachel Fairley 

But also there's just some joyous moments where you get to write things like, you know, there's no such thing as an employer brand. My other question for you is, you've been running this amazing brand strategy academy for brand strategists. I mean, talk about getting to the heart of the matter and actually really arming them with the confidence to do things brilliantly. You've been doing this for a while. What have you learned? Where's your head at on it?  

17:19: Sarah Robb 

So I've learned that the reason I created it is needed, which is helpful. It's very much a practical guide to understanding. What do you actually have to do a brand strategy? Because there's so much out there on theory and models and frameworks, but there's very little to actually equip people with knowing exactly what to do to get a brand strategy project done. So it's really helping those brand strategists with imposter syndrome. You know, I've learned that's a big thing for agency folks as it is for marketers, right, and for designers and copywriters who really are strategically minded. There's a lot of hesitation to get into brand strategy, but a lot of desire to do so. And again, it's back to imposter syndrome. It's back to them feeling that it's too complicated to do.  

18:05: Rachel Fairley 

So.  

18:06: Sarah Robb 

The idea of this course is to bust all of that open and say, look, there is a process. Here's what you need to do, here's the questions you need to ask, here's how you do it. And it's just been joyful because I just love chatting to people on it. I go live every week on it and it's just really great to hear what people think and to help them through it.  

18:22: Rachel Fairley 

I think the before and after must be extraordinary, though, to walk through the door going, I don't know if I'm doing it right. I don't know what to call it. I don't know whether this is the right way to do it. And then to end up with that certainty of this is the questions I'm trying to answer. This is how I should go about actually doing the work that start to end.  

18:41: Sarah Robb 

Well, it's just lovely that people, whether they do it week by week or they binge it over a weekend, just who come back and say, I now feel more confident. I mean, that's why I created it, because I didn't have that confidence for those ten years and I wanted people to not have to go through that. And it's just lovely to hear. The reason you created it is actually being played back. It's lovely.  

19:05: Rachel Fairley 

So what have we heard today it's this. Marketing isn't complicated, but we make it appear so. All the different marketing dialects, the language, the frameworks, the trademarks, the models, the pillars, the buckets. If we focus instead on answering the exam questions why we exist, what we do, who we are and how we do things and how we look, feel and sound, that would be so much simpler. I always say this is one of those processes where you start at the beginning and you work your way through, and as Sarah said, call each part of your strategy, whatever comes naturally for your CEO and culture, and then you'll have done your job well as you diagnose what makes your brand worth choosing over others, don't get hung up looking for a unique, functional difference.  

19:54: Rachel Fairley 

You might not find one, or find one that can only be short lived. Right. It's far better to be distinct, consistently. Just think of adidas and Nike. I mean, honestly, are their products completely unique? Do they perform differently? Maybe, maybe not. Are their brands. That is the reason that customers choose them. Are they distinct? Absolutely. Root everything you do in your customers and your employees. If it doesn't solve their needs, work for them, help them do what they need to do, go where they want to go, be who they want to be. Then it doesn't matter how clever the strategy is, or how elegant the mission is expressed, or how original the ad campaign is. That's why Sarah's first question is key. Why do we exist?  

20:43: Rachel Fairley 

Companies are often born to fulfill a need, to give people something they want or desire, or to fix something broken or despised. If you build your brand around an authentic truth, expressed clearly, you can make magic happen. And the terminology that you use to label that truth, of course, it's entirely up to you. Well, unicorners, that's it for today. You've been listening to unicorny, the antidote to post rationalised business books. I'm your guest host, Rachel Fairley. Your regular host is Dom Hawes. Nicola Fairleigh is the Series producer, Laura Taylor McAllister is the production assistant, Pete Allen is the editor and Peter Powell is the scriptwriter. Unicorny is a Selby Anderson production.