64. Perfect positioning: April Dunford's playbook for success

PLEASE NOTE: This transcript has been created using fireflies.ai – a transcription service. It has not been edited by a human and therefore may contain mistakes. 

 
 
00:00 
Dom Hawes 
We all already know that the language we use matters. We know that what we say and how we say it can be highly influential. We understand that Daniel Kahneman's system one and system two model tells us how our brain processes what we experience, and we appreciate that it's in our power to create and influence what Phil Barden calls the decision interface, why people make the decisions they do. We know all of these things. We marketers talk about them all the time. So why o why does a company's positioning so often suck so badly? That's what we're going to talk about today, positioning. And we're going to tackle the topic with perhaps the world's best known positioning expert in B2B tech marketing, the highly engaging and extraordinarily eloquent April Dunford, author of Obviously Awesome and a new business bestseller, Sales Pitch.  

 
00:57 
Dom Hawes 
You're listening to Unicorny, and I'm your host, Dom Hawes. I'd like to say a very big thank you to Rachel Fairley, who stepped in so I could take some downtime to make a couple of episodes. She introduced you to the amazing Sarah Robb and the fabulous Duncan Danes. And in my two weeks off, I made podcasts. Anyway, thank you very much, Rachel, but I'm back. Have you ever found yourself in front of potential customers, only to be met with blank stares? Do you struggle to explain convincingly why your solution beats all others? Do you feel your messages aren't landing properly? Oh, it's frustrating, isn't it? Well, today we are going to uncover why this happens and more importantly, how you can fix it.  

 
01:42 
Dom Hawes 
We're going to start by looking at the mistakes companies make with positioning and why everyone tends to make the same mistake. Now, if you want a hint, it's in the pitfalls of traditional positioning statements and how they fail to connect with new prospects, even when your current customers love what you offer. And identifying and bridging that gap? Oh, it's crucial if you want to win the future. We're also going to talk about the signs of weak positioning. Before April introduces her proven methodology, she breaks it down into five actionable components that you can start applying to your business immediately. You know, if we cut through all the noise as marketers, the 101 is we need to make it easy to understand what we do. We need to make it easy to understand the value we bring and why we're different.  

 
02:30 
Dom Hawes 
We need to make our products or services easy to buy, easy to get support for buying, and as sticky as we can possibly make them. And that is why language matters. So much. Now, before we meet April, let me tell you a little bit about her. April is the world's foremost authority on product positioning. As a consultant, April helps companies make complex products easy to understand and love. Boasting an impressive 25 year career as a VP marketing at various rapidly developing technology firms, she has collaborated with hundreds of growing technology companies like Google, Epic Games, Postman, and many others. Now, as I've already mentioned, April is also the author of the best selling book Obviously Awesome, which delves into the art of positioning.  

 
03:16 
Dom Hawes 
And she's also recently published a future sales classic called Sales Pitch, which unveils the secrets to crafting a winning sales narrative in the market. Unicorny always brings you the very best. So buckle up and we'll hit the gas.  

We're going to talk today mainly about positioning and your work, obviously awesome. Why don't we start by looking at what positioning is and what people are getting wrong before we go into the main meat of the problem, what do you think? The most common signs are that a company might not be positioned correctly.  

 
03:47 
April Dunford 
It shows up in different ways. My expertise is really around B2B tech and in B2B tech, there are very clear symptoms of weak positioning. The first one is that people have a hard time just kind of figuring out what the heck your thing does. Like, what is it? You'll see that pop up. Like if you're listening in on a first substantive sales call with a sales rep, it sounds like this. The sales rep will be high. Talk to the customer, hi. And they'll jump into their pitch and so they'll be talking stuff and maybe they have a pitch that's like 20 slides long and they'll be at like slide four or something. And the customer will be making this confused face and they will, you will often hear the customers say, wait, wait, wait. Just back it up.  

 
04:32 
April Dunford 
Like, go back to the beginning. Could you just do that first part again? And it's like I missed something. So you can see there's this general confusion. Like, what is this thing? I'm not really sure what it is. Sometimes you'll get this thing where the customer says, oh, I get it. I get what you are. Like, you're just like Salesforce, except you're not. Like, you're nothing like Salesforce. So they think they know what you are, but they are in fact mistaken. Or you'll get the third one, which is almost the worst, where the customer will say, yeah, I get it. I get what you are. I get, you know, where you fit in the market. I just don't get why anyone would pay for that. Like, why wouldn't I just do that with a spreadsheet or do that with my accounting package?  

 
05:11 
April Dunford 
So they get what you are, they just don't really get the value of it, and therefore, why should they pay you money for it? So if you've got a product in market and there are happy customers, you know, you can sell it to people. And the people, once they buy it, they're all happy and they don't turn on you. And they're like, we love this thing. But you have these brand new prospects come in the early stages of the funnel. They're all scratching their head going, I don't even get why anybody would pay money for this thing or what the heck it is. And that gap between what an existing customer knows and what a new prospect is trying to figure out in the very early stages, like that gap is generally a gap in positioning.  

 
05:50 
April Dunford 
We should be able to position the product in a way that this good stuff that existing customers understand about what we can do is more obvious in our marketing and sales material to prospects before they actually become a customer.  

 
06:04 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah, that makes great sense. There's one other thing I've seen, which is we really like your company. We know you do great work. We just don't know how we would buy from you or what we would buy from you. Is that a positioning error or is that just like general comms errors?  

 
06:15 
April Dunford 
Well, it could be like, if it's like, you know, you seem like nice people, we love you. We just don't get, they're basically saying, we don't get what your services are, buddy.  

 
06:25 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah, yeah.  

 
06:27 
April Dunford 
Sometimes what you've got is, and you see this a lot in services businesses, that the positioning is so broad, it's like, we could do anything. I mean, you just come, you know, it doesn't matter what you want. We build it for you, it'll be just fine. And the problem is, nobody wants that. Like, when a customer comes and a customer's like, you know what I need? I need this really bespoke, customized experience on the web. And I know I can't get that from a package, so I'm gonna need somebody to go and build it. I don't hire the people that are nice, that know how to do everything. I want the people that are experts in doing that thing. Cause I'm worried about it, and it's important for the business. And so if I'm doing a bespoke retail whatever experience. That's what I'm googling.  

 
07:10 
April Dunford 
Custom bespoke retail experience. I'm not saying nice guys that do everything.  

 
07:15 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah. No wealth.  

 
07:16 
April Dunford 
That's not what I'm looking for.  

 
07:18 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah.  

 
07:18 
April Dunford 
And so I think that's a problem. Very common in services businesses is the positioning is so broad. Exactly. You get that. That they're like, we like you guys. You're nice. You know, we love it when you come and visit us and talk to us. But I don't know when I would pick you, because if I wanted this kind of a thing, I would go with these other guys. And if I wanted this kind of thing, I would go with these other guys because they specialize in that. And I don't know what you specialize in. So when should I call you?  

 
07:41 
Dom Hawes 
Part of the problem, maybe. Which I hadn't thought about, really. Although you danced a boil that's been irritating me probably for about 20 years in obviously awesome. Oh, no, sorry. That's a horrible picture to paint, isn't it? But it's true. In obviously awesome, you discussed one of the pitfalls of the traditional positioning statement, which many people use to try and come up with positioning, and I've used that many times in the past and come to a dead end.  

 
08:06 
April Dunford 
Well, it's not unusual because it's kind of a bad methodology. So if you're unfamiliar with the positioning statement is like a fill in the blanks exercise. It's like mad libs, right? We are a blank that does blank, unlike blankety blank blank. And the blanks are things like, who's my competition? Like we say, unlike my competition. And what's the value I can deliver? And what is the market category that I'm in? And, you know, and so the idea is you fill in these blanks and then you get this statement or a sentence that says, this is what we're all about. The problem is nowhere in the positioning statement methodology, at least when I learned it. Does it teach us how do we come up with the best answer for the blanks?  

 
08:52 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah.  

 
08:53 
April Dunford 
So, you know, one of those blanks will say market category. Like, I've worked with products that this product, you could call it a database. It's kind of a database, but you could also call it a business intelligence tool or a data warehouse or a lot of other things. And so there's a blank that says market category. How do I know what the best one is to put in there? Same thing with your values. Same thing for your target customers, same thing with your competitors. How do you know you've got the right ones in those blanks?  

 
09:19 
April Dunford 
The positioning statement assumes that you know the answers and the best answer, and the only problem you have is writing it down, which if that was the problem, we could just write down the answers to those questions like, here's my target customers and here's who I compete with. And this is the differentiated value I have. I don't need to actually construct a sentence out of that to make sense out of it. So I think that the problem with the positioning statement is it gives you this kind of false sense of security that we already know the answers. All we have to do is just write down the most obvious answer and the most obvious answer will be correct. But my experience in working on positioning stuff with, like, hundreds of companies now is that quite often the obvious answer is not correct.  

 
10:04 
April Dunford 
It's not correct. And if we actually looked at this from a customer's perspective, a customer would put us in a different category. A customer is comparing us to different competitors than we think we should be comparing ourselves to. And so the obvious answer is not actually there. So I don't think a positioning statement exercise is a good way to do positioning. At a minimum, it might be an okay way to write something down. But again, I feel like it's a little dangerous to even do it because it tricks you into thinking, well, the most obvious answer is the right answer, and that is generally not true.  

 
10:37 
Dom Hawes 
So when I've done it and I've got to the end of it, and you realize you asked the so what? Question, and there is no so what, right. So you've got a statement. So what doesn't help you at all.  

 
10:45 
April Dunford 
Anytime I ever did it, like when I was at IBM, we had to use it at IBM. And so the first time they came to me when I was at IBM, and they said, look, you need to create a positioning statement for this product that I was about to launch. And so this product was a database product and it was the new version of the database product. And I said, look, I'm not doing that. That's stupid. If I create it, what's anyone going to use it for? We do need to understand the component pieces of it. Like, who's our best fit customer? What is our differentiated value? Who are we competing against? But we need more detail than what you're going to give me in this one sentence thing.  

 
11:22 
April Dunford 
Like, people want a real definition of what a best fit customer is, and it's not just the word. And so I said, look, I'm not doing that I'm going to document this other stuff, but I'm not writing this stupid statement. And, you know, went back and forth, back and forth, and finally my boss came in. He was like, look, like, do you enjoy working here at IBM, Amberlyn? I was like, yeah, I'm having a pretty good time here. And he's like, did you do like your big paycheck you get every week? And I said, yeah, I do like my big paycheck. And he says, just do the darn thing. And I said, okay. So I like rage did it.  

 
11:54 
April Dunford 
So I was like, you know, our, until this statement was, you know, we are a database for database people that want to buy a database, unlike oracle, that is also a database, frankly. And that was it. And I wrote the thing down, like as a joke and created it. This is the proof that nobody ever looked at that thing because nobody ever came back and said, now do it. Seriously. This time, April, I wrote it. It went in the binder. Nobody cared about it, nobody pulled it out, nobody used it for anything. And I was like, this, my friend, is a waste of our time.  

 
12:31 
Dom Hawes 
Absolute gems from April and two big so what moments for me for the first so what moment? I want to go back to something she said at the top of the show, because in this little sentence of hers that I am going to read back to you verbatim, she bequeaths us two massive gifts. The first gift is a lovely definition of what positioning is, and the second gift is how you know if you haven't done it right. So pin your ears back. And here it is. It's the gap between what an existing customer knows and what a new prospect is trying to find out. That gap is generally a gap in positioning. Again, it's the gap between what an existing customer knows and what a new prospect is trying to figure out. That gap is generally a gap in positioning.  

 
13:20 
Dom Hawes 
So let's unpack that a little bit and apply our experience. The first gift, her definition of positioning is brilliant because it's not woolly or marketing's language. It's super practical. Your sales team is on a call, and if the positioning is clear, it's very easy for them to explain what the thing being sold is and why the customer needs it, and they can move quickly into the rational support details, the speeds, the feeds, and that kind of stuff. Even better, if the positioning has been well promoted, then the salesperson might not even have to do any explaining. Now, if the opposite's true, if the sales call stalls because the customer is having a hard time understanding why they need this thing or even what it is, then gift two kicks in. It's waving a big red flag and calling for your attention. Hey, over here.  

 
14:09 
Dom Hawes 
Our positioning isn't working. Fix me. This is symptom based marketing, and the symptoms are really clear. People either get you or they don't. And if they don't, well, you know what? You have to do the other. So what moment for me was when April talked about the positioning statement itself. If there's one thing we marketers can't seem to avoid, beyond death and taxes, of course, it's a tangle with that old fill in the blanks positioning statement. And I'm so glad April pulled its pants down because over the years, I, and I'm sure you're with me here, I've struggled to get anything good out of it. Yeah, sure. It's a useful recap of factual stuff like who we serve, what we do, why we're different, all that kind of stuff. But that still doesn't give us a position.  

 
14:55 
Dom Hawes 
Going back to the seventies, when Al Reese and Jack Trout wrote positioning, they were pretty clear. A position is a space you own in the mind of your customer. This ties in perfectly with what April's saying. Be something clear in their mind first. And the old positioning statement won't get you there because it's largely a list of things written from your perspective. It's classic inside out thinking, whereas the art of positioning is to think outside in. What is this product or service doing for my customer? What does it mean to them? What space does it occupy in their minds? And this is so bloody crucial because if your customers don't get you, well, then they're just going to go and get someone else. Are you mopping? What? I'm spilling Unicorners changing from inside out thinking to outside in.  

 
15:45 
Dom Hawes 
That's been a recurring theme on our pod, and it's amazing to me how this simple shift of perspective can do so much for our outcomes. Okay, good start from April outlining the issues. Now let's go see how she solves them. What does your positioning look like? Have you got an example of a business you worked with that has changed its positioning and seen a dramatic increase in either acceptance or success?  

 
16:07 
April Dunford 
Yeah. So I'll give you a few. Like, I mean, there were a few that I worked on when I was in house in the very early days of my career that convinced me that this was a really powerful thing. The first product I ever worked on when I was junior, I got assigned to a product at this company, and the product was failing. And it was originally conceived as like an alternative to a spreadsheet, except it was like a spreadsheet on steroids. And it could do a whole bunch of stuff that a database would do. So you could write an SQL query, and this is structured query language. And a lot of times people would do stuff in a database versus a spreadsheet because you can do all this programmatic stuff.  

 
16:46 
April Dunford 
So this thing was easy to install and set up just like a spreadsheet, but it did all this database stuff. So we kind of envisioned it as desktop productivity software. And we did our homework too. We talked to customers beforehand and they were like, oh yeah, if you had this SQL database, SQL spreadsheet thing, that'd be amazing. Anyways, we launched it, total failure. You know, 100 or so people bought it, and then they never used it for anything, like. And so I get assigned to the product and we're thinking about just shutting it down. And so I talked to a whole bunch of customers, and what I found out was of this hundred customers or so that I talked to, 92% of them didn't know, didn't even know what they were going to use it for.  

 
17:27 
April Dunford 
But there were this small number of customers that were using it for something that we had never anticipated. So what they were doing is they were using it like a mobile database. They had a database back at headquarters that had all this programmatic stuff that was like their order system or something. But then they had people out in the field that were doing things on tablets or cell phones or laptops, and what they could do was write a little thing to have that run out in the field. And then when they came back, they could sync up with the database. You couldn't do that with a spreadsheet because it doesn't do SQL, but with our little thing, you could. So they're kind of using it not like the desktop productivity, which is what we envisioned it as.  

 
18:07 
April Dunford 
They're using it like a mobile database, an embeddable database for a mobile device. So what we did was we did the shift in positioning. So we said, okay, well, what if it was that? So let's shift it. So let's call it an embeddable database for mobile devices and try to sell it like that. And that was an absolute transformation. Like that was, it was a completely different use case. We were selling to different people. The whole story was different and ended up changing our pricing and a lot of other things too. But that product took off. We eventually got acquired by a big company in the Bay Area, and this mobile database thing became the growth engine for the entire bigger company for years and years.  

 
18:46 
April Dunford 
And, like, if you add up all the revenue that thing ever made over its lifespan, it was more than a billion dollars. So what that taught me is that here we had this thing that was actually really valuable. We just didn't really understand what the value was and what people were comparing it to and how they were going to use it. And if I had have filled out the positioning statement, for example, it wouldn't have given me any clues as to what we should do to improve the positioning of this thing. So that got me thinking about, wow, you could take this product that looks like a loser, but reposition it in a different, and then all of a sudden in a different context, it's actually a winner. That's how I first got excited about this stuff.  

 
19:27 
April Dunford 
I thought, ooh, like maybe we could do this with any product. Like maybe we could take any product and reposition it and have it be good. So then that led me down. This thing, well, if we're going to do this positioning thing, we should have a repeatable methodology to actually get it done. Like, how do we do it? Because when we did it, we just kind of thrashed around. And frankly, were very, very lucky that we had a couple of customers using it in that way that could tell us. But the thing I was obsessed with was, how could we have done a better job of that, even out of the gate? Like, if we asked ourselves different questions? And could we have surfaced that before went through the pain of actually failing first?  

 
20:06 
Dom Hawes 
Yeah.  

 
20:07 
April Dunford 
And so my work is very focused on that, like figuring out how can we do a better job of positioning regardless of what our current situation is, regardless of what we're hearing from customers.  

 
20:17 
Dom Hawes 
Just struck me as really interesting that you often hear about startups who find their real market doing a pivot and they start out to do one thing, end up doing another. In the middle of that is a reposition a bit harder, I guess, for larger businesses who may feel like they need to show commitment to the market or the positioning or where they are in market.  

 
20:36 
April Dunford 
Well, larger businesses, what you have, often there's an idea that the product was launched with a specific idea, then you get it out and it's in the market. But markets aren't stable. They change over time. So we've got new competitors coming into the market. Things in the market itself are actually shifting. And so you may have set out to build better email. You know, we're going to build better email. And then we're email guys, we're build better email, and we've got this thing out there and it's email. But the whole market has shifted around you, and you fast forward six or seven years, and you know what? Maybe that thing is actually chat, okay? And maybe if you positioned it as chat, it would be easier to understand because the value you deliver actually looks more like chat than email.  

 
21:24 
April Dunford 
Because let's face it, chat and email, there's a lot of overlap there. And so I think in mature businesses, what you get is often the positioning makes sense in a point of time, and you've been quite successful with that. But over time, things have shifted, but your positioning has stayed the same. And suddenly this positioning just isn't working anymore. And you feel the pain of it not really working. And all of a sudden, people are confused and they're saying, well, wait a second, are you email or are you chat? I'm not really. Like, it sounds like chat, but you're calling an email. I don't really get it. And the company, because they never positioned deliberately in the first place, like, the positioning was just obvious. We're fixing email. That's what we're out to do.  

 
22:03 
April Dunford 
We didn't think about whether it was email chat, but all of a sudden, five years later, the question is valid, like, are we email or we chat? So now we're gonna have to go back and fix it. And we need a way to do that. Like, we need a way to decide, well, what is the best market category for this thing? And in order to make that decision, we'd have to decide, well, what is the real value we're delivering here and who's it for? I think that's what happens at bigger companies. A lot of the work I'm doing now is with bigger companies. You know, most of the time, we're not doing a giant shift from one thing to the other. The shift has already happened.  

 
22:35 
April Dunford 
We're just tightening up how we talk about it so that the customer gets to the aha moment quicker.  

 
22:42 
Dom Hawes 
So we looked very briefly at what the symptoms are. If your positioning isn't correct now let's dive into the essential steps to becoming obviously awesome. April, you defined and detailed a process which we can look at in a minute. You identified five components of positioning. What are those?  

 
23:00 
April Dunford 
The five big components look like this. And it's interesting. If we come back to our discussion about the positioning statement, it's often the blanks in the positioning statement. Five components go like this. The first one is competitive alternatives. If you didn't exist, what would a customer do? That's the first one. The second one is differentiated or unique capabilities. What have we got feature function wise capabilities of the product? If we're talking about a services business, it's one of the things that we can do that the other folks don't do as well as us. The third one is differentiated value. So customers don't actually care that much about your features or your capabilities. They care about what that means to their business. So what is the value that you can deliver to a customer that the competitors cannot?  

 
23:45 
April Dunford 
The next one is, well, who's a best fit customer? So we need to define who's a good fit for our stuff. We're not trying to sell to everybody. We're trying to sell a certain kind of customer. And then the last one is market category, which you can think of as the context we position our offering in. Market category is kind of like, well, what are we? Are we, you know, are we a database or a business intelligence tool? Are we email or are we chat? If it's a services company, it's like, how do we describe what we do? Like, are we services for law offices or are we services for mobile devices? Things like that. So those are the five components. That's where we start.  

 
24:19 
Dom Hawes 
Brilliant. And how do they relate to each other? Is there kind of overlap or.  

 
24:23 
April Dunford 
Well, this is what's really interesting. When I started down this path to figure out how to actually do positioning because I got so frustrated with things like the positioning statement, the first thing I thought was, well, I'll just break it into pieces. We'll solve for the component pieces, figure out how to put it together. Voila. Good positioning. But when you break it into pieces like that, the first thing you notice is that each of the pieces has a relationship to the other. Like, that's something the positioning statement does not give you any clues about. So if I take any component, like, let's take value. The value that you can offer to customers that no other competitor can is completely dependent on your differentiated capabilities.  

 
25:05 
April Dunford 
We don't get to just make it up like it comes from this stuff that you have that the other guys don't have. So those two things are related. I can't figure out one without the other. But then if you think about it, a differentiated capability is only differentiated when you compare it to a competitor. So, you know, those three things are related. And then even when I think about something like a best fit customer, what's the definition of a best fit customer. That's a customer that really cares a lot about the value that only I can deliver. So I can't figure out one without knowing the other. Market category is the same thing, too. Like, our best market category makes our differentiated value kind of obvious to our best fit customers.  

25:43 
April Dunford 
So I need to know value and best fit customers before I can assess whether or not my market category is good. If I reason this all out, everything has a relationship to everything else. So where do I start? For years, I thought, there isn't a good starting point here. Like, I could start with something. Let's start with capabilities, because we're familiar with those, and I work my way around the wheel, and then I get candidate positioning. Take it out to the market. Let's test it. If it works, great, we run with it. If it doesn't, we throw it out. That's super frustrating. Like, it's fine if you do it that way and the first time you get it right, great.  

 
26:17 
April Dunford 
But if you do it that way and it fails the test, then you got to come back and work it again, and everybody's mad at you because they just spent two months farting around with this positioning that, you know, ultimately didn't work. And, you know, if you're the vice president of marketing, it's a good way to get fired. So I did that for a few years, but eventually I came to the conclusion that there was an obvious starting point, and the obvious starting point is actually competitive alternatives. If we don't start with competitive alternatives, what we get is positioning sounds good in the office, but when we take it outside, it doesn't work because we are insufficiently differentiated against the other things that a company is that a prospect is comparing us to.  

 
27:02 
April Dunford 
So we actually have to start with competitive alternatives, which in my definition of it is whatever the status quo is in the account. So what are they doing today? And also anything that might land on a short list against us. So if we didn't exist, what would a customer do? That's where we start. That's our stake in the ground. And we say, look, that's what we got to be in order to win a deal. And then we can say, okay, well, what have we got that they don't have? That's my differentiated capabilities. I can make a big list of that. And then those capabilities, I can translate that to value by saying, okay, we have this whiz bang AI thing. So what? Why does a customer care? What is the value that a customer gets out of that capability?  

 
27:42 
April Dunford 
And so I can figure out my differentiated value that way. And then once I have that and I can say, look, we're the only company on the planet that can deliver you a combination of this value plus this value. Now I'm asking myself the question, well, who cares a lot about that? Because not everybody cares that much about the value that only you can deliver. So what are the characteristics of a target customer that makes them really care a lot about the thing only you can do? That's what makes them a good fit. And then I got market category, I can say, look, I got this value. I'm trying to make it understandable for these people. What's the best context to position this thing in? Am I a database or am I a business intelligence? Am I email or am I chat?  

 
28:23 
April Dunford 
So that's the way I look at it.  

 
28:28 
Dom Hawes 
So there you have it. Unicorn as April's five step positioning process. Step one, start with your competitive alternatives. Who would your customers go to if you didn't exist? Step two, uniqueness. What can you do that your competition either can't do or doesn't do as well as you? Step three, what's the benefit for your customer? What do they get out of it? Step four, fit who is your best customer? And then step five, market. What's the context? Are you in general it or are you really doing cybersecurity for finance? And it's all done through the lens of the customer. What does all of this mean for them? What this means for us is that we are at the end of part one. In part two, we're going to delve into how April goes about getting the answers to those questions.  

 
29:20 
Dom Hawes 
And then what does she do with them? It's going to be great. So make sure you subscribe to the show and it'll pop up in your podcast feed. Like magic. You have been listening to Unicorny, the antidote to post rationalised business books. I'm your host, Dom Hawes. Nichola Fairleyis the series producer. Laura Taylor McAllister is the production assistant, Pete Allen is the editor. Peter Powell is our scriptwriter and editor. Unicorny is a Selby Anderson production.