7. Perfecting Value Propositions with Barbara Moreno

PLEASE NOTE: This transcript has been created using fireflies.ai – a transcription service. It has not been edited by a human and therefore may contain mistakes. 

00:03
Dom Hawes
Welcome to Unicorny, the antidote to post rationalized business books. This podcast is aimed at senior executives who want to find out how other businesses are building value through marketing. So join us as we sit down and talk with the heads of some of the biggest companies on the planet about the business of marketing.

00:19
Dom Hawes
We'll find out how they run their.

00:20
Dom Hawes
Marketing departments, where they're put in their budgets, and the ethos that drives their decision making. King. I'm Dom Hawes, and in my day job, I'm the Chief Executive Officer of Selbey Anderson, a fast growing marketing group that helps businesses in complex markets win the future. Now, before getting stuck into today's show, I just wanted to remind you about last week's incredible episode, where I was joined on the podcast by co host Sarah Nunnely and our guest, Duarte Garrido, Standard Chartered's Bank global Head of Social Media and Digital. Now, we explored how social media is driving relationships in marketing. In our conversation, we discussed how modern marketing departments should be structured, and Duarte explained how he thinks social media is changing the very nature of capitalism. We also analyzed why gen zers are buying values over products. It is a fascinating episode, so please do make sure you check it out if you haven't already.

01:17
Dom Hawes
For many people, defining strategy and articulating a value proposition that salient to all stakeholders, well, that can seem really intimidating. But in tight times like these, being able to explain what you do and how you add value in a way that your potential customers can a understand, and B communicate to their colleagues, that's not optional. My co host for this episode is the super brain, Adam Greener, associate Director of Digital Radish, a multiaward winning marketing and ABM agency that specialize in working with high growth B2B businesses. And our expert guest, well, she knows a thing or two about both strategy and value propositions, too. Today welcome global head of Product marketing for Amadeus, Barbara Moreno, into the Unicorny studio. Amadeus is a major Spanish technology provider for the global travel and tourism industry. If you've booked a holiday online recently, it's highly likely that you booked using Amadeus technology.

02:11
Dom Hawes
You just didn't know it. Now, when we recorded this interview in mid 22, Amadeus was just coming out of two years of COVID kind of like the rest of us. But unlike most of us, this was a period in which the entire industry in which they operate travel was shuttered. As a result, they had to completely redefine how they operate and do business just to survive. So I can't think of anyone better.

02:35
Dom Hawes
To talk to us about strategy and.

02:37
Dom Hawes
Value propositions than Barbara. And in our conversation, we start by defining what is a value proposition, and we go on to explore how you can create a great one. Barbara explains what insight metrics they use when building their brand propositions and what we can learn from their experience and we also debate brand or performance marketing with the onset of a looming recession. Hi Barbara.

03:02
Barbara Moreno
Hello. Good morning.

03:03
Dom Hawes
Barbara. Why don't you please introduce yourselves and Amadeus to our audience.

03:08
Barbara Moreno
Okay, thank you. Well, first of all, thank you for having me here today. It's very exciting, as you said. Variano so I work for Amadeos, I'm the head of product marketing for a business line in Amadeos called Air Distribution. And then Walmados is a leading It player in the travel industry. So we want with our technology provide better journeys to the travelers. And obviously we work mainly with travel players such as airlines, hotels, Rails, you name it.

03:36
Dom Hawes
Who's the end user for your product?

03:38
Barbara Moreno
Airlines, travel sellers, corporations, hotels, Rails. So we're a B2B company, so we really work for kind of like the players and then they will ultimate. Obviously everything we do is thinking on the traveler. That's the final consumer. So we really want to improve the journey and just make better journeys for everyone through technology.

03:59
Dom Hawes
That's pretty cool.

04:00
Dom Hawes
And what about your role Barbara?

04:01
Dom Hawes
What do you do there, happy as your team? What's the scope?

04:04
Barbara Moreno
I work in a business line called Air Distribution. So that's really kind of the part of the business of Amadeos that what we do is we take the content from the airlines. When we refer to content we mean like availability of the flights, like the frequency of the flights, all the information about flights and then it's uploaded, let's say in the Amadeos travel platform. So then Amadeos travel platform, that's where all the travel sellers either if it's like a traditional travel agency, if it's an Ota, they will just go there and they will get the content. And then whenever you make that kind of booking, what we do in the Mado travel platform is just like we provide information about the first availability if you want to book a seat, if you want to book a bag. So as part of our distribution, my objective is to really ensure we share the value of a travel platform to our travel sellers.

04:54
Barbara Moreno
So they work with us and they go to the Amadeus Travel Platform to get the content. And obviously on the other hand, we need to engage with the airlines so they see the value of a travel platform and they give the content to us. So it's quite an interesting role because we have this kind of dual head. So we need to think on what the travel sellers want and what the airlines do not like want and always with the objective to enhance the travel experience to the travelers.

05:19
Dom Hawes
One of the reasons I was so excited to get you into the studio here is that if any sector was more affected by COVID than travel, I'd like to see what it is. So your world has completely changed over.

05:31
Dom Hawes
The last two years, right? Yeah, it has at this stage.

05:34
Dom Hawes
Adam, I think it'd be really good to introduce you. Please, because this is obviously an area of yours. So Adam.

05:39
Adam Greener
Well, Adam Greener. I'm a strategist and associate director at Digital Radish, an agency that is always breaking new ground. And part of the breaking new ground when we're working with clients, is to focus on things like the value proposition. And I expect before we even get into the conversation about value propositions, I expect the key thing is what is a value proposition? If you don't mind me just giving a brief overview. It was created by a chap called Alex Osterwalder. And I would say that the best way to look at it is a good value proposition is the promise of the benefits and value that you can deliver. And it also encapsulates a distinctive or differentiated message that you would take into a crowded marketplace. So that's the value proposition, but before even sort of delving more into things like the value proposition canvas and what are the different components, what I'd like to actually ask you, Barbara, is when you sort of came across the Pandemic and everything changed literally overnight, did your value proposition change overnight as well?

06:36
Adam Greener
And what was the impact on your function and how you were operating and how you were looking at UVP?

06:42
Barbara Moreno
Actually, it did. We had to send a message, and we really need to demonstrate that were all together. At that time, I was the head of marketing of a new technology called New Distribution Capabilities. So then what we realized is, like, the customers that, okay, now more than ever, we need to ensure that travelers, whenever they travel, they do it in a secure way. Especially when were still in that time that flying was so complicated that we had to get all these kind of certificates and things like that one. So that was a need that it was in the market. And that's what with this new technology, were really allowing to have more flexibility in terms of the content were giving all the information or the flexibility were giving to the travel sellers when selling the product to the travelers. So then we realized, like, okay, we need to speed up this new technology because now more than ever, it's very important that the travel sellers can sell a journey, that it's what the travelers need.

07:36
Barbara Moreno
Like, if you want to book an extra seat because you don't want to have anyone beside you because you don't want to take that risk, we need to give that opportunity. There was this need of enhanced in travel retailing, and it really speed up during the pandemic because it was just more important than ever. We had to give a really customized experience of traveling. So you asked, like, the value proposition really changed because it was just like, yes. We knew we had to enhance travel retailing, so we really need to really let our travel sellers know that we have a technology that will fulfill with the demands of the travelers.

08:08
Adam Greener
And so when you send about the travelers, that's an interesting thing because what we're talking about here is you have a customer, which is the B2B customer, but actually where you're going is you are moving into a space that says we are thinking about their customers. So your value proposition, a lot of that is about alleviating the pain and delivering gain literally to the end user, isn't it?

08:28
Barbara Moreno
Yes, that's right. In my case, I need to think on the airlines that we need to sell the technology to them. I need to think on the Travis Airless that they are the ones that are going to be using that technology. And then the final is the customer that everything should be really aiming to improve the journeys to them. It's sometimes a bit challenging because yes, obviously you need to have these three actors very present when you build up the value propositions. And you need to be very like conscious of what's in it for me as an airlines, what's in it for me with this technology as a travel seller. And for both of them, it's really to tell them, hey guys, you need to do this one because ultimate is the traveler. I mean, that should be the focus for really the three of us, just to make better Uranus.

09:05
Adam Greener
So that's an interesting thing that we're going to now, which I do think is very interesting about value propositions. You were talking about three actors and of course it's always informed by insight and by people that know the different sort of aspects of the industry or the different aspects of the type of customer. So it sounds to me that also it's about how you work cross functionally within Amadeus.

09:26
Barbara Moreno
Yes.

09:26
Adam Greener
Could you tell us a bit more about sort of how you go about doing that and bringing it all together for the creation of a value proposition?

09:32
Barbara Moreno
When you build up a value proposition, you need to have also very close contact with the commercial teams, obviously, and then with the product managers. And were discussing before how It companies were being so product oriented. So then we have all these engineers, many of them, they are product managers and they have it so clear that's the technology, this is what we're doing. And Sanchez is like, hey, hold on, that's the technology, but that doesn't show our value. We need to go back and then incorporate the findings that you get by talking to the commercial teams, like through the customers themselves. I think it's super important to be also down to earth talking to customers, seeing what's happening outside, that's super important because you really need to understand what are the challenges our customers are going through. And then when you build the value proposition, you need to bring that insight that's when you bring the product experts and then you say, okay, now with the value of the product, now let's incorporate it to the needs of that we have identified by really understanding what's the market, what's happening outside, what's happening with our customers.

10:34
Barbara Moreno
So yes, it's super important to be in contact with sales guys and product experts.

10:38
Adam Greener
So we could safely say a poor value proposition is based on assumption and a great value proposition is based on insights.

10:46
Dom Hawes
Yes, we've talked about kind of the.

10:48
Dom Hawes
Theory, some of the implementations, some of the approach, why? So a lot of people listening to this won't be working for large technology companies. Why would a small to medium sized companies spend a lot of time thinking about their value proposition?

11:00
Barbara Moreno
If you want to really bring your unique selling points you need to have a value proposition. You really need to differentiate who you are. Obviously everyone wants to increase revenues, decrease cost, bring efficiency. How do we make it work and why it's you and why it's not someone else. And obviously it's a great way to demonstrate your expertise. You demonstrate you understand where you are going through.

11:25
Adam Greener
Number one, I would say what it is just a good exercise in understanding where your business sits in the market. Because simply by thinking about the value proposition, what you're actually doing is you're evaluating the things that matter, which are the customer pains, the gains that they need, the jobs they need solving. And I would also say you thinking about this from a competitive perspective. So part of I would say creating a value proposition is understanding the value propositions of your competitors. And then we go to a place that says that's just good business center because of course it allows you to define the gaps in which you can win because there will be gaps where you can have a decision. And I think the other thing is within a company I think it just focuses thinking because we know small companies, big companies, we all get extremely busy, we're all trying to do lots and what we actually often lack is focused.

12:16
Adam Greener
And for me a value proposition canvas is just a nice way to focus everyone and say what actually is it that we're selling and why? And let's think about this from our customers perspective. And I think that's sort of a really good leveling line within a business. I'd recommend personally that every business should do it at least annually and it should be a strategic priority to do it. Because the other thing that we know is things move at such pace and we've seen that particularly in the last couple of years, that your value proposition that you may have even had six to twelve months ago is possibly no longer a value proposition for today's world and certainly won't be 18 months down the road.

12:50
Dom Hawes
Cool?

12:51
Dom Hawes
Okay. I think with our heads on pistol thinking small to medium sized enterprise. If someone wants to develop their own value prop, where do they start?

12:58
Barbara Moreno
I think the first thing is really to define the problem, understanding what's happening outside, to show you understand what are the pains like your customers are going through. So I think it really helps to set the scene, okay, there's a problem, there's a challenge, and then you go over it. And I think it's also very good to bring some metrics in terms of, like, because this is happening, you may be losing X amount of money per year. Once you have set the scene is obviously you bring out what do you need to overcome that challenge, what kind of functionalities, what capabilities you may need from an It provider, or from like a provider of it all. And then I think then it's when you need to integrate, what's the value you can give here? And if you can calculate the value, that's even better. And especially with technology, I think with some of our products, that's what we really try.

13:44
Barbara Moreno
It's just to say, okay, we've seen that by this customer using this product, they ended up getting an extra revenues of this one. That's super. I mean, if you are able to give that metric, I mean, it's just showing really clearly your value. And then for me, the last point is really about selling yourself. It's like, why you? Why not everyone else? Yes, you've already introduced the topic with your metrics, but what makes you unique? So, for me, it's those four points. It's really like, I define the problem. Really just show your capabilities, your value, and then bring metrics. And then it's about you, like who you are as a company and what you can add.

14:16
Adam Greener
I think that sort of utopia is differentiation. And everyone talks about it in marketing, and we talk about it when we're thinking about value propositions. How do we differentiate? I think, number one, it's very difficult sometimes to differentiate, but the first thing I would say is to differentiate. And I'll come to distinctiveness in a second. To differentiate, you need to understand, okay, from a competitive perspective, what is everyone else claiming? That's the first thing. You need to have that benchmark of competitors. The second thing is then you need to define the gap where there may be differentiation. And then you need to be very honest with yourself about your company and whatever it is you're selling, be it a product or a service, and say, does that align with that gap, with a claim that we can make? And finally, I would say very important is you have to have the proof point that supports that claim that is differentiated.

15:04
Adam Greener
So working with a lot of the companies that we work with, what we talk about as well is distinctiveness. Because to be distinctive is almost as important. And that's simply about having something in market, a proposition and messaging, which is distinctive from everyone. But it doesn't actually mean it's a USP or differentiation. It just means that we are using a different language or bringing a different angle. And I would say that where we're going right now. And this actually touches on something that I think is quite important about value propositions. And something that I feel that you briefly sort of touched on earlier, Barbara, is the idea as well that not only do we have the functional gains and pains, which are very rational, but you've then got the emotional side. And I think this is where we're going that's getting very interesting now with value propositions, which is we're starting to go to a place that says the value proposition is not just a rational thing about the gains that you can deliver.

16:01
Adam Greener
So that's opportunities that you can help organizations as an example, to capitalize on all the pains that you can help them to deal with, which of course is helping them sort of deal with the challenges and the issues, but it's also about the more emotional thing, which is, and you mentioned this before, why us? What's our purpose as an organization? So if we're thinking about Amadeus, why do you do what do you do? And also starting to think about the different ethics and principles that as an organization that you know, that your clients share with you. And we start to go to a place there that says that takes a value proposition beyond the sort of norms into a place where we're looking at shared attributes. So we could say shared values. It might be a shared focus on sustainability or diversity in the workplace.

16:50
Adam Greener
And these are really important because when we go back to how do you become distinctive? It's about solving all of the rational things, but it's also about topping that out with the things that really start to impact people when they see it emotionally. And they engage with it because they say, I like the cut of the jib of this organization. I like what they say and I like why they do it.

17:11
Barbara Moreno
I just want to jump in and say I just love I mean, I love the emotional party to bring that one into kind of like the value propositions overall in marketing, I think it's super important to make a story that is emotional, that it resonates with people. So, I mean, I'm 100% into what.

17:27
Adam Greener
You'Ve just said and this gets us back to the VP, the value propositions, it's a focus and I think I want to say a few C's here because we like to do this, don't we? In marketing, CP, you've got connecting all of the dots and then you've got that consistent stories that you take and you take that into the customer and they feel more confidence because of course, the experience they have is consistent. And I expect really where we're going with this is thinking about it the other way around and flipping the funnel is simply by connecting everything and being more focused, it's your client that has the better experience, it's more consistent, they're more confident in you. And I think that starts to build trust. And we know, and we go back to the emotions here, that good value propositions, actually, they enable trust to be built, I think, faster.

18:14
Adam Greener
And that trust is, I think, the big differentiator. I shouldn't say that word, should I? But between potentially winning and losing on what might be a significant deal, earlier on were talking about poor value propositions are assumptions based and great value propositions are based on insights and being a strategist. I like to talk about strategy and I was just going to sort of move into a place that says in terms of strategy, because I always feel that the strategy is almost the baseline for the value proposition. But I'm just wondering, in terms of strategy, are there any specific approaches that you take within Amadeus? Any specific models that you use to start to sort of pull the insights together that may form a future value proposition?

19:03
Barbara Moreno
No, I think it's very important. We are fully aware of what's happening in the market. Note we are really kind of aware of the needs of the customers and what our competitors are doing. So to have a strong market insights, for me it's super important and just really to know what's happening also outside in terms of customer behavior and also how technology is changing. So I think it's like three very important aspects. So I would say it's really in terms of the industry, marketing insights, but obviously customer behavior and then technology and how technology is moving.

19:35
Adam Greener
And I might just drop something in here because I'm going to be honest, a lot of people just say strategy and what is it? And there's a couple of things. I mean, strategy, basically, I think you honestly understand what the challenges are you face, but also what the opportunities you can capitalize on are. And you simply set out, I think, the simplest approach to be able to deal with the challenges and capitalize on the potential gains. But I think one of the problems we see is that we start to go into models for strategy. And I did a quick Google search this morning on the train and found at least 30 right now what's key, and I'm hoping that this might be useful, there are probably three models that are really useful right now. Number one we all know is the SWOT. It's often forgotten strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats.

20:21
Barbara Moreno
And I would say I remember I did a master degree in marketing, I don't know how many years ago, but that was the basic. And it's true how sometimes you go into your day to day and you forget to go into the basics.

20:34
Adam Greener
Yes, it's the baseline one for me with anyone. You have to be honest and I think you have to do it thinking about competitors as well. So you have to think of that context. I think number two right now is a pest. So that's political, economic, social and technological. And that's actually about what are the drivers, what political drivers, what economic drivers, what social drivers, and of course, what technological drivers for change are there. And of course, you can do that on a big mega basis or you could do it industry by industry. And then the third one I think is really interesting. It's scenario planning. And, and it all sounds very fancy, but basically all you're really doing is you're examining the variable elements within your environment and then you're, you're evaluating them for plausibility and impact. And actually I think good value propositions are built on also scenario planning around what do we think the pains are that customers are having and their customers, what do we think the gains are?

21:34
Adam Greener
What are the jobs that they need solving? And so I would say those three, which are the past SWOT and scenario planning are three great strategic models to use. And all of them, if you use them, can feed into some really great value propositions just as a baseline.

21:49
Dom Hawes
Can I bring one more? For me, it's value chain analysis. So we're talking about value props. Being able to be able to analyze and understand your customers value chain and.

21:58
Dom Hawes
Where you add most value to them.

22:01
Dom Hawes
I think is invaluable. If you're looking at, certainly if you're looking at trying to quantify your value proposition, you need to understand how much value and where in their own value chain you're acting.

22:12
Dom Hawes
Adam's point that you need to outline a strategy based around potential challenges and potential gains is important and something we sometimes forget. You can't create a meaningful value proposition from a myopic point of view. Nope. To develop a strong value prop, you need a full 360 degree picture of your business, the trading environment, and any other factors that speak to your product or service's relevance. In its simplest form, a value proposition is a statement. It defines why a customer would choose your product or service, but something we're really trying to get to grips with or hammer home here is a value proposition isn't just for your customer. Your business and your people also benefit by knowing how you articulate your delivery of value. So your value prop can be part of the North Star for your team. You're listening to Unicorny with Dom Hawes, powered by Selbey Anderson, the marketing group that helps complex businesses win the future.

23:10
Dom Hawes
Coming up on today's show, we outline what questions marketing departments should be asking themselves with a recession in sight. And we seek to settle the agile debate about brand versus performance marketing. But first, let's bring ABM into the conversation. Where does ABM fit with your value prop?

23:29
Dom Hawes
In B2B, account based marketing has been on the tip of certainly every competent time for the last year and a half. It's gaining in currency all the time. And I know Barbara, that's been a tool that you've used with some great success. And obviously Adam, you are strategy lead on lots of ABM accounts. How does value prop play into ABM?

23:52
Barbara Moreno
Yeah, it's really important. It's really important that you build up your plan with that customer. You look at the potential, what you can get from that customer. You do all, as we've said, all the analysis, the sort of analysis and then you understand, okay, this is where the opportunities I have with this customer, that you feel that customer that you worry about the customer and that you can really provide them solution services. And you mentioned before, no, they trust that they can trust you. And that makes such a big difference because if you have that relationship with the customer, business will end up coming in a natural way and they will really know like, okay, yes, this is a provider I can trust. So I've worked with Provider. It's one word about can you help us in this other thing? Can you help us? And when you have that kind of flow of communication, it's really powerful.

24:38
Adam Greener
And do you divide your ABM up, Barbara, into sort of the more programmatic end? So that might be what's known as ABM light or ABM to fuel to many as well as strategic ABM or is most of your ABM focused on those sort of big high value clients? So it's that more one to one strategic, I would say.

24:59
Barbara Moreno
Now I'm thinking more on the airline side, it's more on the one to one. It's really about looking at what kind of the potential of each of the players and then we just like work specifically on the areas where we can see there's a growth and then we build up that kind of plan based on that one. So it's more on a one to.

25:17
Adam Greener
One and that's something that within ABM and value propositions and the two, there is an absolute confluence there and that is to be distinctive in ABM. The value proposition I believe, is kind of everything what's interesting with strategic ABM because of course, let's just be open about this and Frank, the money is there in strategic ABM to say we will spend X amount just to create a conversation with an individual, which we certainly don't see. It the volume side of ABM and what that enables you to with a value proposition is you can build a value proposition to a market of one. So I've been involved in that and I'm sure you have. Do you want to share anything on that without giving us too many?

25:58
Barbara Moreno
No. Especially as you were saying once again, it's just like we have over 400 customers in terms of airlines. So if you look at a customer base, that's not much. I mean, if. You think 400 customers that your customer on the airline side is massive. It's like 400 airlines is a lot of airlines. When it comes to airlines, that's where we've had this kind of one to one plans in terms of, like, identifying what are the needs, doing a specific communications, build up a specific branding look and feel. Like even everywhere we had a customer that were doing this kind of we call them, like, 360s. So every six months we will just sit down together and we will lock ourselves in a room and then we will just be kind of looking at what's the strategy, how the strategy you were saying before, how we need to be now agile looking at how to adapt our values.

26:46
Barbara Moreno
Every six months were sitting down with them, were looking at their strategy, has their strategy changed and then were kind of looking at our progress in the last six months towards Common project. So it's really a one to one conversation. It works extremely well. And one of the latest meetings we had in London before COVID we even have the CEO of that airline. So it's quite nice when you even get to the CEO of an airline coming just because they really want to talk with you, because you're a trustful partner. And it brings me to quite an interest. For me, ABM is also a combination of different tactics. Now obviously it's direct communication, it's like targeted paid media campaigns in social media but for me there's a lot of in terms of hospitality, a lot of building up kind of also the relationship with the customer and I remember I had to Naples like some time ago that he was just like no, that's all marketing.

27:36
Barbara Moreno
When I would just tell him about doing this kind of hospitality or events he would just say that's all marketing, how do you track the return of investment? And I would just say we bring out the world several times. Here is about trust and that we are an emotions and when you have the possibility also to meet a customer face to face, you bring that emotion. You bring that kind of, like, trust in an easier way that just digital campaigns. So for me, it's really a combination of kind of maybe more modern world and thinking of that customer that were meeting with them. Every six months. We were obviously doing a lot of targeted also paid media campaigns. So then, because we knew we had an opportunity to sell a solution, were really targeting doing these media campaigns. Paid media, you're targeting them. But obviously it was a combination, that one with the ongoing cons plus spending time together.

28:25
Barbara Moreno
So I find when you build up your AVM plants you need to look at what's the need of your customer but really look at all these different tactics.

28:35
Dom Hawes
There are storm clouds gathering around us and one of the things of unicorn is we want to look forward kind of 612 18 months and talk to our audience about things they might want to be thinking about. And at the moment the looming recession is on everyone's lips. Whether we're talking our way into it or whether it's real, how deep it's going to be? Is it going to be a double dip? We don't know. Barbara, if you were going to be giving tips to people listening to this about the next twelve months, what would they be?

29:01
Barbara Moreno
Okay, so we've discussed before how ourselves or my industry was really impacted like two years ago. So I think hopefully we've already gone through the worst. After our experience, I think it becomes super important to be much more conscious of where you are. I think what we are saying the importance of really understanding your customer. So I think it's not really just like training to get everywhere. It comes with what we're saying. Do your homework, have clear, what's your analysis, what are your strengths, and just focus your energy where you want to go. And if you need to be a bit more kind of like being also creative. Sometimes it's being creative and focus really on where you want to go. It's a good exercise just to step back and maybe this is a moment also for many people to really step back and just really go to the basics.

29:51
Barbara Moreno
What's my value? Where do I want to go as a company? Where do we want to go as a marketing department? What's objective for the company? Just go back to the basics analysis. We have said how something has a short analysis, we may forget to do it. Go to that one and just like focus your energy on really where you see what's important for you.

30:13
Dom Hawes
And there's a big debate raging online at the moment with one side you've got the LinkedIn BTB Institute and Mark Richardson who is saying that it's not all about performance marketing, that brand marketing is much more important. And then on the other side you've got performance marketing crowd saying don't spend any money on brand right now. It's all about performance, measurable, results, revenue, operations. Where are you guys on that?

30:36
Barbara Moreno
Yeah, I mentioned Harley before. It's maybe romantic, but I think it's about performing. But it's a lot about brand by building up the relationship. But maybe it's worth it. You take your customer out for lunch and then something as simple as that 1 may bring much more opportunities. For me, it's having us upset. Clear, you know where you want to go, you value and then just set actions that you can measure. Like taking someone off for lunch might be hobbies just to build up. Especially when we are all going through these kind of tough times. Just to show that empathy, that to show like I understand you, I know what you need, and then let's work together on this one, for me, it becomes very important. And that's really you are reflecting just you're the brand, you're the face of the brand. So I think brand is very important.

31:21
Adam Greener
I simply think you can't decouple brand from performance marketing, and there's a synergy between the two. And I think to sort of have these knead reactions, to say, we're going to do this or do that. At the end of it, brand is important. And I think the Binan field reports are a good example of if you focus on Brandon, actually spend something on Brandon. The other thing is, I think understand what brand is. And it's more than just words. It's exactly what you've been saying. It's the actions that you take and how you interact with your clients that's also part of it. So you have to prove beyond simple words that you stick and live to your purpose. And even in times of real difficulty economically, it still doesn't always mean that the cheapest is what they go with. Actually, I would say they derisk by thinking who will be here in X amount of time, who do we like?

32:17
Adam Greener
Why do we like them? All of these different things. So you simply cannot decouple them. And I think, again, what we do in marketing is we tend to do this, we polarize everything. You can't. Both are important. Focus on both, understand both, and continue, of course, to do both.

32:33
Dom Hawes
Thank you very much indeed for a really excellent chat. We've gone in so many different directions, but it keeps coming back to the same thing, value.

32:42
Dom Hawes
Thank you.

32:42
Barbara Moreno
Thank you very much.

32:43
Adam Greener
Thank you.

32:46
Dom Hawes
Wow, that was a big and a very deep chat.

32:48
Dom Hawes
Adam, it was. What struck you most and hardest during.

32:53
Dom Hawes
The conversation you just had with Barbara?

32:55
Adam Greener
I think there were probably a couple of things that Barbara mentioned that really sort of resonated with me. The first was the fact that through all the change that we're moving through at great pace, that Amadeus were regularly reviewing and evolving their value propositions. That's number one. I think number two. What I also found really inspiring, actually, was the fact that Barbara and her team are constructing a narrative from the value proposition that they can then cascade into the organization. So there's a consistent story to market and they can earn their sales to go in and have really, I would say, interesting, engaging, but also consistent conversations with their customers.

33:32
Dom Hawes
And those conversations, I mean, the efficacy of the value proposition, I think, came out during the conversation around ABM as well, that you have to understand where you deliver value if you're going to be salient to your customers. And another thing that particularly struck me, which I think you lit on towards the end of our discussion, was how value propositions are evolving.

33:54
Adam Greener
Yeah, I think what we're seeing is we talked about differentiation and simply being distinctive. And I think part of being distinctive is to move a value proposition beyond the functional and rational, which are the gains and the pains and starting to look at the more emotive side of things. And that's usually around things like shared attributes, shared values, shared ethics. And what we're seeing is that's starting to make the big difference for organizations out there. I think particularly now that we are entering literally the era of purpose, we all feel better about buying from organizations where we feel they are doing the right thing and that we share some of the values with them.

34:33
Dom Hawes
It's such an important part of trust then. It's such an important part of trust knowing that the people that you're working with are like minded.

34:39
Adam Greener
It is where we go with that is you go back into the emotive, but trust is literally everything. And I think one of the things again that we mentioned was this idea about both brand and performance marketing. And of course, the brand piece is very much built on trust and it's built on me as potentially a buyer within B2B, really liking not just a solution service product, but I like the people I deal with, I like the way that they talk, I like the way the brand and what it represents. And of course, all of that sways not only my, but my colleagues decision making. And this is again something that we in marketing can affect continually and I think also fundamentally, well, we're not going.

35:24
Dom Hawes
To find a finer place to stop from that today. Adam, thank you very much indeed for time, what a blast it's been and I hope you come back.

35:30
Adam Greener
Really enjoyed it and look forward to it. Thank you.

35:34
Dom Hawes
Well, sadly, that's all the time we have for you today on this podcast. Thanks again to Adam Greener for co hosting with me. And of course thank you to the amazing Barbara Moreno and Amadeus for sharing time with us and sharing insight on the show.

35:50
Dom Hawes
Really epic episode.

35:52
Dom Hawes
And for me anyway, I found that really valuable. In next week's episode, I'm joined by Sharper B2B's Russ Powell to speak to Kalibrates VP of Global Marketing, Ruth Connor. We get stuck into the topic of marketing technology and talk about how to get your stack right and your data relevant.

36:12
Dom Hawes
In the episode, we talk about the.

36:13
Dom Hawes
Importance of marketing operations or Mops, and making sure your systems are aligned. We also explore how creating a single source of truth is critical if you want your content marketing to be relevant. And actionable. Thank you for listening today's show. Together, we're building a body of reference to make marketing work better for business. Now, it takes us eight to 10 hours to produce each and every episode of Unicorny. Please take the time to share, rate and review us, help us get found and help yourself at the same time. Because Unicorn is far more than a podcast. It's a community of leading marketing minds. And pretty soon we're going to be running events too. If you're interested in joining our community, please get in touch by following the Unicorny page on LinkedIn or connecting to me on LinkedIn. My name is Dom Hawes. H-A-W-E-S. You've been listening to Unicorny with me, Dom Hawes.

37:05
Dom Hawes
Powered by Selbey Anderson, the marketing group that helps complex businesses win the future. Unicorny is conceived and produced by Selbey Anderson, with creative support from One Fine Play. Nicola Fairley is the executive producer. Connor Foley is the series producer. Kasra Faruzia is a superb audio engineer and editor, and the episode is recorded at turnmillstudios.co.uk. Thank you for listening and we will see you in the next one.