91. Respect - the currency of your customers (and your career)

Dom Hawes:
00:03

You're listening to Unicorny and I'm your host, Dom Hawes. Welcome, Unicorner’s, to part two of a fascinating conversation about the state of marketing with legend and guru Simon Carter. He is the epitome of the marketing pro. He's forged a career working for some of the great marketing organizations out there like NatWest, EDF and Virgin. And he has a very clear view of where marketing stands today and where we need to take it. Now, in part one, we looked for causes of both malaise and joy in our profession. Broadly speaking, we saw two sides in play into out short termists looking to satisfy internal goals and out to in long termists looking to build customer centric brands. I think you know which side I am on.

Dom Hawes:
00:53

But at the end of part one, we opened up on what I think is the pivotal theme of this conversation. Leadership.

Dom Hawes:
01:00

Specifically leadership and how our industry represents itself.

Dom Hawes:
01:03

And that's exactly where I want to go next. So without wasting any more time today, we're going to rejoin Simon in the studio right now.

Dom Hawes:
01:10

So marketing's changed, the media's changed, but we Dom't seem to have seen any change in those bodies that represent us. Trade bodies are massively fragmented, and they seem to be organizations that care more about membership than they do about mentorship or industry leadership. Do you think that's fair?

Simon Carter:
01:28

I think it's completely fair. Trade bodies ought to do marketing of themselves, marketing of the industry, marketing of marketing. So if we look at things like account based marketing, which is kind of a big part of B2Bthese days, when was the last time a trade body reached out to me? Yeah, I've been in this industry 35 years. I've worked for some reasonably large brands and been involved with some reasonably large campaigns. Yeah. When was the last time anybody spoke to me about becoming an evangelist or doing anything on behalf of the industry? Yeah. If we look at the PR side of marketing, when was the last time that the CBI wrote a report that interviewed the CIA? And when was the last time that news at Ten ran a story where there was a marketing voice represented?

Simon Carter:
02:10

When was the last time that whether it's GDPR or some other new government law or act or bill that was going through, when was the last time that marketing's voice was heard? It's disappointing.

Dom Hawes:
02:21

I think business as a whole somehow seems to have lost its voice. I mean, the CBI had its own issues. Obviously, the Institute of directors, of which I'm a member, doesn't seem to be nearly so prolific in media these days.

Simon Carter:
02:32

What should be our trade body is probably McKinsey or probably KPMG or someone like that. They are filling the void to represent the industry and that seems a bit weird to me.

Dom Hawes:
02:42

They've probably got better PR people.

Simon Carter:
02:44

They've definitely got better PR people. I'm sure they will argue they've also got bigger pockets, but ultimately, but dare I say, they also have bigger brands and that's disappointing.

Dom Hawes:
02:52

The chartered institutes of marketing, the DMA, the IPA, they all have their own niche, they're all reasonably small. I'm conflicted because I know that. I'm a fellow of the Chartered Institute and I know the CEO there well, but I find it interesting, the point you made about not being reached out to by those organizations. They seem to be very passive in the industry and I'm not quite sure what their role is.

Simon Carter:
03:15

I think they're reasonably competent at the junior level, but I think that's about revenue. It's about getting people to do their qualifications, become members. I know lots of my junior team are members of the CIM or DMA, but are the senior team? I Dom't think they are. I think they weigh; I think they disappear. They lose that relationship. There doesn't seem to be any reach out, any connection with senior marketers amongst the trade bodies. It's very much just about, let's get the training revenue in, let's get the qualification revenue in, let's get the membership revenue in at the start. But then what?

Dom Hawes:
03:46

Yeah, and leadership's a lonely place, right? Anyone that gets to the top of the tree knows that it is very lonely when you get there.

Dom Hawes:
03:54

And there doesn't seem to be a.

Dom Hawes:
03:55

Great deal of institutional, let's say, infrastructural support for marketing leaders.

Simon Carter:
04:00

Certainly most of businesses I've worked for are happy to put money behind training, happy to put money behind qualifications, but I'm not seeing that money then passing through into our trade bodies. I see it going to other organizations who've set up to fill that void.

Dom Hawes:
04:15

There's been a proliferation of those sorts of courses, like Mark Ritson's mini MBA is one of the really high profile ones. But Ehrenberg Bass is now announced he's going to launch its own course. And recently I've come across four or five other kind of cohort based training schemes that seem to be offering much more practical training than you can get through the institutions which are still pushing a very theoretical approach, it seems.

Simon Carter:
04:38

Absolutely, and I think Mark Ritson is a good example. Where do people at? I play in that. Why wouldn't someone like one of the institutions come to some of the lead marketers in the industry and say, well, why Dom't you do a module or do an interview like this or whatever to bring that reality to theory? But we Dom't see it. It's not happening.

Dom Hawes:
04:56

What do you think the solution is?

Simon Carter:
04:57

Well, that is a million dollar question, Dom. I think that you talked about the benefits of actually being quite disparate as an industry. I wonder whether there was something about some unifying factor that would bring the institutions together into one reputable, well financed, well resourced entity that brings the credibility. Is that a part of the future? I Dom't think it is, because I Dom't think they would want to do that. I Dom't think it's in their interest to do so. But I think they are too fragmented.

Dom Hawes:
05:23

And they run almost as commercial companies, so they definitely see each other as competitors and will compete over the same members, whereas someone like me, I actually haven't got a problem with belonging to one or more. I actually belong to one at the moment, but I haven't been contacted by one of the other bodies. I Dom't particularly want to name them who I could give so much to.

Simon Carter:
05:42

Yeah, I'm associated with the Worshipful Company of Marketors, which probably doesn't appear on many people's radars, but actually I think they're as good as any of the institutions. But I just think there's a gap, it's just a void.

Dom Hawes:
05:53

Let's talk about the worship of a company, because my impression is they have a lot more senior members and probably a lot more clout at that senior level than some of the industry bodies.

Simon Carter:
06:02

I think they have the potential. I just Dom't think they have the resources or the drive to fill the gap. I also think they're very polite and they Dom't really want to step on people's toes.

Dom Hawes:
06:11

But it seems to be harder to get into than the industry bodies.

Simon Carter:
06:15

There are entry criteria other than just paying a check.

Dom Hawes:
06:19

So leadership, we've agreed, is a lonely place. But you've succeeded without that support. How did you get to be where you are today?

Simon Carter:
06:26

Well, I think that comes from within. You know, I thank my parents, I guess, for that and whatever, but you have to work at it. Probably be old now, but the great quote of Jean Paul Getty, the oil baron from the States, who said that his three keys to success was get up early, work hard and find oil. That is, there's a big element of luck in it as well as working hard. And I think I have worked hard in my career to get where I am, and I have tried to navigate my career rather than just fall into things I specifically have tried to broaden. But I think back to my Nat west days, my first job.

Simon Carter:
07:01

And again, they're probably not quite as PC today as it was then, but every Friday night we go down the pub, and you go down the pub with your boss and your boss's boss's boss. Come 10:00 when most people have gone home, but you're still standing and you're subbing around for a senior director or whatever, they remember you. I worry slightly about the hybrid world. I think hybrid is great. But I think particularly if you're starting out in a career, it's quite hard to build those networks, quite hard to get your name and your face known through a team's call and said back in the day when you could go down the pub, you could go to a leaving party, go to a retirement party, whatever it was, and be seen, I think was really valuable.

Simon Carter:
07:41

And I certainly put part of my career growth down to that.

Dom Hawes:
07:44

Yeah, networking is essential. Like you, I really worry about where hybrid working leaves us. It's not just about having a face that's known. It's also about the conversations that happen informally, the knowledge and the approach that you learn while you're talking to seniors in an informal environment in agency land. It used to be lunchtime and afterwards in the nineties. In the nineties, we used to work very long hours because in the middle of the day we'd stop for two or three, so we wouldn't finish till nine or ten at night, actually, there was really good team spirit, and you.

Dom Hawes:
08:12

Got to look and see a lot.

Dom Hawes:
08:14

Of people and how they operated socially at work. It made a massive difference.

Simon Carter:
08:18

Absolutely. And it helps you develop. You observe, you see, what do your peers do, what do your boss is looking for? What's your common currency of football team or tv program or whatever it is? And it just brings a new dimension.

Dom Hawes:
08:34

We're a big believer, as you know, in networking, so we're running a unicorn quarterly for the alumni of this podcast. I'm also quite tempted to do something for more junior marketers who aren't necessarily CMO and have been on the podcast, like a beer and pizza in a pub, so that kind of middle to junior marketers can get together and start building a network.

Simon Carter:
08:57

I think that's invaluable. I think your challenge is simply about brand and getting to those people, why should they come to yours rather than something from an agency or whatever? But there is a gap. Then back to the trade body thing. Nobody else is doing it, so why wouldn't you? Even if you try and do both, so you bring a friend. So you do your main group with the people you know and ask them all to bring a junior friend with them.

Dom Hawes:
09:23

Now there's an idea comes cheap.

Dom Hawes:
09:30

Yep, lots to be Dome. On the representation front, I do wonder if we need to re examine the question about making our industry more professional or not. When we last discussed it on the pod, we came down on the side of the nose. The reason being that we are already a very diverse, dynamic and creative bunch. To try and force us into a single scoop of thought would potentially kill off what makes us great. And of course I still buy into that argument to an extent. But the more I ponder our industry and where we're going right and wrong, the more I question whether a formal, unified qualification wouldn't help. When you think of other industries like asset management, they require specific industry qualifications.

Dom Hawes:
10:11

There's no shortage of creativity there, just look at the explosion of alternative asset managers and the growth of private investment. It's almost mainstream now. That was reliant on a dynamic, creative bunch who had a nose for opportunity and of course a wall full of certificates. And I am sort of beginning to think it would really help, especially with some of the institutions who represent us. Like they need to be more than networking organizations. And having a professional basis for everything we do and stand for would help give them more credibility too, especially if that certification and training was at the heart of their offering. Les, speaking of networking, it brings me to another point I wanted to bring up.

Dom Hawes:
10:50

I asked Simon how he got to the top in marketing and he put it down to the old school soft skills of getting to know people and getting to be known. Ultimately, marketing is a people business. We're not unique in that, of course, but it does mean that ours is much more than a meritocracy. So simply doing your job well is not going to be enough. You have to do all of that.

Dom Hawes:
11:11

And you have to mingle.

Dom Hawes:
11:12

So we can choose to think of ourselves as human value propositions, just like a brand or product. And we also have two halves to our proposition. So on. The first half is like this. Do I have something an employer wants to buy? That's things like skill sets, abilities, track record. And the other half is, am I someone an employer wants to buy? That's my character, my personality, my ability to work with others and that kind of stuff. When you apply this to a job interview or promotion scenario, if the first half of someone's proposition is equal to.

Dom Hawes:
11:43

Their competitors, then the second half really.

Dom Hawes:
11:45

Comes into play strongly. In fact, speaking from experience, I would err on the side of a candidate with whom I can get on with skills. After all, can be learned, taught and added character and personality. It's much harder to shift. Anyway, let's get back to Simon. I want to wrap things up and get some main points we can all.

Dom Hawes:
12:03

Take away from his experience.

Dom Hawes:
12:05

First among those is Simon's definition of marketing. Now, I know when I'm asking people.

Dom Hawes:
12:09

That it sounds a bit 101, but.

Dom Hawes:
12:11

You would be amazed how many definitions of marketing there are floating out there.

Dom Hawes:
12:15

Look, check out podcast 80 episode 80.

Dom Hawes:
12:18

On this subject, I asked 1015 people on LinkedIn. I got ten or 15 different answers. Anyway, I think how we define marketing is critical to how we approach our role within it. So it's a key question that I'm definitely going to ask more often. Let's see how a true marketing pro answers it.

Dom Hawes:
12:36

So now, as we start to bring this episode towards its end, I really want to focus in on what we can take away. But before we do that, at the end of the last part of this show, you hinted at a definition of marketing. And it's something I think I'm going to come back to in future shows. But I thought we might, before we look at what people can take away, just throw the base question at you.

Dom Hawes:
12:59

What is marketing?

Simon Carter:
12:59

It's the million dollar question that's been asked for decades and longer, probably, and that's good. I think marketing has evolved. For me, it's about understanding customers, it's about developing solutions for them. It's about explaining why your solution is better than anybody else's. And it's then about encouraging them to consider your brand for that solution. It starts with a customer, it starts with insight, it ends with a call to action. That, for me is what marketing is. And it can manifest itself in a B2B world, but also into a B2C world. There is. So I've built my career on working in both sectors because I think there's a lot that B2B can learn from B2C. There's a lot that B2C can learn from B2B

Dom Hawes:
13:40

So it seems like the starting point.

Dom Hawes:
13:41

If we're looking at what the takeaways are, and we think back on the content we talked about today, marketing being undervalued, leadership being a lonely place, that kind of stuff. The starting point probably is to work out where your centre of gravity in your company is and then make a plan for how you would make the work you're doing more valued within that context.

Simon Carter:
14:03

Absolutely. Despite what I've said about marketing, respect, whatever, at the end of the day, you're in it together. You are part of a team, you're part of a business. And I think marketing needs to understand and needs to play to the business objectives. So where is the company going? So the company is trying to grow. How can marketing help you grow? Now, whether, you know, as I talked about earlier about this propensity to buy, about being able to separate awareness from purchase, so you have to play to the game of the business. It's not about being a lone voice, a lone wolf. But I do think that there are very few businesses, and I include public sector, I include charities. There's nowhere I've experienced which doesn't need some form of marketing.

Dom Hawes:
14:44

With that in mind, then, marketers are generally not good at promoting themselves. They tend to be the people that sit in the background. Sales tends to be at the forefront of the organization. How can marketers build better internal communication programs, or how can they communicate their value better to the business?

Simon Carter:
15:01

Yeah, I think that is true, Dom. But I think it goes back to one thing we talked about earlier around permission, because I think if an organization wants to be successful, it recognizes the issue you've just talked about, and it lets everybody have an equal voice or have a voice. Maybe not equal, but have a voice. And I think letting marketing into the conversation. So my job, when I look at my teams, my commitment, my promise to my teams is that I will ensure that their voice is heard, their work is seen, their value is shared. That's my job, you know, not to do the work itself. That's what the team is there. But my job is to promote that message, bring it to an end.

Simon Carter:
15:42

But some of my thoughts are, you know, things like, you know, the Maya, Angelou, quote around, people will forget what you said, forget what you did, but. But they'll never forget how you made them feel.

Dom Hawes:
15:51

So our job is, it's exactly the same inside the organization as it is outside. Actually, we need to start outside in. Think about our colleagues, think about what they need to know and how you want them to feel, and then build an internal campaign to help them get there.

Simon Carter:
16:05

I think so. But it is a shame that you have to do that. You have to build the internal campaign. As I said, in the perfect world, it doesn't happen very often, but having that permission, having that recognition, having that level of respect. I've used respect a lot today, but I think respect is an important word for me. To be listened to be heard, challenged, but to have that chance, that opportunity, rather than having to fight for it and create that niche.

Dom Hawes:
16:30

And this, by the way, is not a problem that's unique to marketing. There is a very well known investment bank and the IT department hired an agency to create a whole CRM program, an internal CRM program using all the kind of CRM tools that you would normally run for an external promotion to promote their value globally inside that organization. We liked it so much, we bought the agency. Actually, that did it. And I'm not saying that's the right approach for marketing, but actually taking a much more considered approach to internal communication so that everyone understands what you're doing might not be a bad thing.

Simon Carter:
17:03

Half the business I've worked for, internal comms are sat in HR now. My view is internal communication and external communication is the same skill set. It's all about taking a message, choosing a medium, having a call to action, that's the same. Whether you're communicating to employees, you're committing to customers or prospect customers. The skills involved in employee communication is the same.

Dom Hawes:
17:23

So there's takeaway number one.

Simon Carter:
17:25

Actually, I think lesson from one for me is about respect. It's about demonstrating to the audience that actually if we did this together, we would get a better outcome.

Dom Hawes:
17:34

I'm going to throw some quick fire questions at you based on my lovely blue ocean strategy.

Dom Hawes:
17:40

What do marketers need to stop doing?

Simon Carter:
17:41

I stop apologizing. I think marketing brings something to the party. Don't apologize for it. Don't try to wait to be invited in. Go out there and talk about what you do well and what you bring to the party. Others may not.

Dom Hawes:
17:56

Okay.

Dom Hawes:
17:56

And in an ideal world, what do marketers need to do less of?

Simon Carter:
17:59

I think that it's a similar point in terms of less about the where do I play in this? And more about being recognizing for being accepted and having a role to play and bringing something unique. I think that as a marketeer, you represent the customer. You are the voice of the customer. You understand what customers want and people need you, whether they are in sales or they're in operations, or they're in product. Unless they've got that voice of the customer, they can't do their job.

Dom Hawes:
18:27

Okay, and what do marketers need to do more of?

Simon Carter:
18:30

I think they need to be bolder in the famous words of the incredible philosopher Toyah Willcox. I think it's about be loud, be proud, be heard. Be proud about the business that you work for and the organization you work for. Be loud in terms of, you know, make sure that your voice is heard and be heard. Make sure you cut through.

Dom Hawes:
18:49

Okay, and we've got one left and it's start. What should marketers start doing?

Simon Carter:
18:53

Start representing the customer. Start using the currency of the audience. Very few businesses are not looking for growth right now. So how can marketing play to growth? What is it that you bring about the brand, about the customer, about the process, about the way we do things, about the way we stand out, we differentiate. How can we help the organization meet its objectives?

Dom Hawes:
19:14

Can I throw one in there too?

Dom Hawes:
19:16

I would like to see marketing leaders start creating a proper framework for their teams and how they're going to develop in this hybrid Covid world. Because we all know it's the same in agency, by the way. We want senior educated, independent, proactive account people that can go and work with clients, but they Dom't magic themselves to get there. They have to be trained, they have to be nurtured, they have to be developed.

Dom Hawes:
19:39

My big concern on our side of the fence is that in three years time or four years time, we've got a void because they're just not getting enough experience. And maybe the institutions are partly to blame for that.

Simon Carter:
19:51

One of the things I've Dome, a couple of the larger businesses I've worked for is have, I'm calling it the current business lunchtime educationals. But the ability to run a training session outside of the day to day. So, and generally I will use an agency, one of my agencies to use that. So have the PR agency come in and talk about PR, have the direct marketing agency come in and talk about database marketing, have the, even the IT business come in and talk about Martech or whatever it is. But you have different voices talking outside of the day to day. But bringing you that wider concept, I think is really valuable and also helps the agency gel more with the organization.

Dom Hawes:
20:30

Isn't it funny how often the word respect came up in our conversation?

It was the premise of the talk, really, marketing seems to have lost respect. Where are we losing it, why are we losing it and what can we do about it? Well, over both parts of the podesthe who looked at these questions, and I think we probably have found some answers, much of it depends on our approach and of course, the approach of the organization in which we live. But if we as marketers can take.

Dom Hawes:
20:54

A customer centric line that out to In view of what we do, I. Genuinely think we're on the path to gaining respect, because it's not enough just to moan about our level of agency.

Dom Hawes:
21:05

To throw our collective hands in the air as we cry out loud and say, oh, they Don't get us. It's not fair. Now, for respect to be given, of course it has to be earned. And as Simon pointed out, we're all parts of a team, so we have to be able to get on with that team.

Dom Hawes:
21:20

Remember the whole mingling thing we talked about a little while ago? And we have to be able to play the team's game now. Today that game is business growth. So the best way we can demonstrate our value is to help drive the collective effort. It doesn't just mean doing our job or the job that's assigned to us, it means taking the things we're especially good at that others aren't, and bringing those to the party. And this is where an outside in approach really works for us, because we can provide understandings of what the customer's really saying and needing, and being that voice of insight to the organization at large.

Dom Hawes:
21:54

And we can take this exact same out to in approach with our own internal marketing departments and think about how we model them and provide career paths and training for our up and coming next generation marketers thinking about what the end user needs, whether it's internal or external. This is Simon's currency of the customer, and in my view, that is the most valuable currency there is. You have been listening to Unicorny. I'm your host, Dom Hawes. Nichola Fairley is the series producer, Laura Taylor McAllister is the production assistant, Pete Allen is the editor and Peter Powell is our scriptwriter.