90. The #1 thing holding your marketing back (it's not your team)

Dom Hawes:
00:00

As leaders, we understand and we accept that the perception of marketing within our organizations can vary widely. Now, in some companies, marketing is the centre of gravity, the driving force behind all strategic decisions for organizations we've met on this podcast like NatWest, SAP, JetBlue, Fujitsu, Frog, Capital, Paddle and more. Marketing is deeply embedded in the core of the business. It's the heartbeat that drives growth, shapes products and connects with customers. But not every company places marketing at its centre. So today I have invited a super senior marketer to join me in the studio to wrap about exactly this issue. Today we meet Simon Carter, whose marketing career includes brands like NatWest, Virgin, EDF Energy, the post Office, Thomas Cook, Fujitsu and more. We're going to meet him in a minute. You definitely want to hear what.

Dom Hawes:
00:53

He has to say about centres of.

Dom Hawes:
00:55

Gravity, so don't go away. You're listening to Unicorny and I'm your host, Dom Hawes. Today, when I say marketing is undervalued, I am not talking about the marketing department itself. I am addressing the broader, more fundamental issue, the process of marketing. This process which involves understanding customer needs, crafting compelling value propositions and then driving products or services to market its essential to the success of any business. But in companies where marketing is not seen as central to success, this process can be misunderstood, under appreciated or even overlooked. Well, so what? I am the first person to say judge the success of the marketing by the success of the business. So if the business is thriving, does it matter? Well, frankly no, as long as the success is sustainable. And if success is sustainable, well then why change anything?

Dom Hawes:
01:54

But if it's not, or if the business is struggling, well, that is a different matter. And it's in organizations where marketing isn't the focal point, where it's viewed as a peripheral activity rather than a core strategic process that we as marketing leaders face a tougher challenge. If marketing isn't valued, it's also not likely to be seen as either the problem or the solution. In reality, of course, it's probably both. Now, to be clear, this challenge has nothing to do, as I've already said, with the importance of the marketing department. The department that you have, its scope and the role it takes in your organization is the outcome of asset allocation, resourcing and philosophy. Now some of that's in your control, of course, and some of it is not.

Dom Hawes:
02:36

The challenge I'm talking about is the challenge of repositioning the process of marketing as the driver of business success. I'm talking about the process of taking a business, a product or a service to market. Now if that distinction doesn't mean much to you, please press pause right now and listen to show 81st. You've done that. Okay, great. Now, now that you listen to the show, you will remember that I finished it with the comment, it takes a whole village to bring a product to marketing. Runs through the veins of every business, or it should do. So let's go meet Simon.

Simon Carter:
03:16

Good morning to you, Dom.

Dom Hawes:
03:17

Why don't we kick off by learning a little bit more about you and your career because we're going to be talking about some pretty big subjects today and I want audience to understand the breadth, depth and variety of your experience because I think that's going to play into all the conversations we're about to have.

Simon Carter:
03:32

Yeah, I've been in marketing kind of all my life really. Although I guess we'll come and talk in a second about what is marketing because I think different businesses see it differently. But yeah, I started my life in financial services, joined the graduate scheme from that West Bank. I spent two years in the branch and then the HR director said oh, you should go into lending. And I'm thinking that sounds a bit dull. And they said well actually we do have a job in this thing called direct marketing. I said okay, that's interesting. So what's that then? And they said oh, I think it's junk mail, but don't say that at the interview. And I guess the rest is history because I didn't use the word junk mail in the interview and I got the job in that west marketing department.

Simon Carter:
04:06

And I think one of my views of companies and sectors is around centres of gravity and different businesses have a different centre of gravity. And I think NatWest is probably the best example of a business I've worked for where the marketing was the centre of gravity. So marketing ran the business. It was all about marketing. So it was a proper four P's or seven P's type role in that. I was responsible for pricing and product development as well as the promotional side and everything else. So I spent sort of seven years at NatWest bank, five years in century Marty, and then wanted to grow my wings, I guess. And I do recall that I, when I went, decided to resign.

Simon Carter:
04:45

I went into the office of my boss who was quite a tempestuous gentleman on the very morning that they were removing the glass from the NatWest tower. It's called Tower 42 now or something. So about 28 stories up and there was like an empty gap behind him. And I'm saying, Mark, I think I'm going to resign. But fortunately, he didn't throw me out. But I left NatWest and then moved into the opening of the utilities market. So went to a brand called London electricity, which was fascinating because here was a fat cat type industry. There were 13 regional electricity companies and British Gas, and they controlled the market based on where people lived. And suddenly the government and its influence wisdom had decided on competition, so they realized they needed a bit of marketing.

Simon Carter:
05:28

I went in there as a young, sort of well trained but junior marketer and spent whatever it was five or six years at London electricity. That market changed massively during that period. You had the U switches and the compare the markets type of entertainment, the market. So we decided to grow our business by going into partnerships. One morning I wrote to WH Smith, I wrote to Virgin, I worked at body shop. All these people say, hey, do you want a partner? Richard Branson team responded saying, yeah, we're thinking about doing that as well. And so to cut long story short, we formed a joint venture called Virgin Energy.

Simon Carter:
06:00

And so there I learned about small businesses, about waiting till Friday to see if Richard put the money in the bank account to pay the salaries and all of those things, which was fascinating, but again, real exciting stuff, really creating a new market. From there, I went to the post office in the news a little bit at the moment. At that time, we did research that showed it was the strongest brand on the high street. Sadly, not at the moment. And for the post office, I went to Thomas Cook. Thomas Cook. I then went to Fujitsu. We don't draw any analogies between where I've worked. Spent eight years in B2B marketing on a european scale, a mere basis from Fujitsu.

Simon Carter:
06:35

I then spent a couple of years doing interim roles, 8/12 months roles as interim chief exec for an agency, a market research agency, and then went to work for a family business, which again was eye opening in terms of the way family businesses are different. So, like, you've got pe at one end, you've got family business at the other. Briefly back into holidays, then into education, technology for four years and now into automotive.

Dom Hawes:
06:57

Very broad mix there and both consumer marketing as well as B2B.

Simon Carter:
07:02

Yeah, you might say it's with hindsight, but I did. I have tried to build a career, so I haven't kind of fallen into these roles. So I've tried to do B2B and B2C I've tried to do different sectors, different sizes of businesses, all of those things. And so when I pitch myself my career, my cv, I guess is very much about taking the best from different perspectives and taking it to other clients. I guess a bit like an agency does, but do it from within really. And there aren't a lot of people, I think, who have done quite that scale. And then on the side I've done other things from property companies through to being a columnist for marketing week for four years, through to pro vice chancellor of a university, etcetera.

Dom Hawes:
07:42

So very broad background which will make you perfectly placed to help me understand the main course we're going to talk about today, which is why marketing seems to be so undervalued. And I think maybe the hint to that is in how you opened the show today where you said it depends on a firm's centre of gravity. I'm interested in that concept. Why do you think some companies think that marketing shouldn't be at least near the centre of gravity?

Simon Carter:
08:07

Yeah, as I said, I think every company has a different centre of gravity. I think you have very, some business, very operational led. You have a many businesses, particularly in B2B, who are very sales led. You have an increasing number of businesses who are very product led. And product seems to be divorced out of marketing, particularly in B2B. Why is it that way? I guess that's down to the culture of the business, it's down to the leadership of the business, it's down to the heritage of the business. But I think most of the companies I've worked with since NatWest have not had marketing at the center. Yeah, we can unpick why that is.

Simon Carter:
08:40

But personally I think that the lack of respect for marketing, the fact that everybody feels that they're marketers and can do marketing, and marketing is all about comms and anyone can write an email. So therefore I can do an ad and do a social media post or whatever. I think it's part of it. I think it then manifests itself in terms of qualifications and the reputation of those qualifications. I think if you look at things like accountancy and HR and legal, the qualifications are everything. If you don't have your ACCA exams, then you're not going to get a job in finance. And it's not quite the same in market.

Dom Hawes:
09:11

It's not.

Dom Hawes:
09:11

We actually, we had a whole episode on that very topic with speaking to Paul Worthington, where we. I think we ended up deciding in that episode that marketing is half a trade and half a profession because there's so much on the job learning and or self taught content along the way. The point isn't lost that there is no framework for proving competence.

Simon Carter:
09:31

And I agree with that entirely. And I think, you know, again, I'm not sure if we delve into it, but I think the trade bodies that support marketing, I think have not necessarily done a fantastic job to sell marketing. Yeah, I can't remember the last time I watched news at Ten and saw chutzpah marketing being interviewed. I can't remember the last CBI report that talked about our trade bodies or the corridors of Westminster.

Dom Hawes:
09:54

Well, I do want to come on.

Dom Hawes:
09:55

To that later because I want to dive into that area. I think there's a lot of interesting conversation to be had about that. But while we're speaking about marketing being undervalued in central gravity, one of our observations is that in businesses that aren't marketing oriented, that don't have marketing at the centre of gravity, a version of marketing still gets done. It just gets done by other people. The sacrifice, in my opinion, in those companies is they don't build long term resilient brands. And I think many businesses underestimate the importance of brand.

Simon Carter:
10:25

I think we live in a world of short term, immediate gratification and brands don't fulfill that specification, really. But I also think that people's perception of what is marketing differs. So talk about brands. Last week I renewed my car insurance and I used a compare the market type website and it came out with a whole load of brands I'd never heard of. And so I went down the list, boom, boom, and chose the cheapest known brand as opposed to the first five on the list.

Dom Hawes:
10:52

That's exactly how I do it.

Simon Carter:
10:53

Absolutely. Exactly. But that for me is marketing. That for me is brands. And I feel that a business that doesn't get it and puts all its money into price support will fail to realize that one of the things that I've done at the last two companies I've worked with is the concept of a brand tracker. So where we do research of customers about knowing about brands, one of the metrics which I'm really interested in is what I call propensity to buy, and that is a calculation between the number of people who know your brand and the people who buy your brand. So at the moment, I work in a tire sector and so awareness of our brand might be 40%, but then if you look at it, 35% of customers already buy from us.

Simon Carter:
11:33

So that means the propensity is only 5% because people probably back to our car insurance, don't buy from a brand they know. So therefore, the only way that business can grow is to grow awareness so that you widen that gap between those who know of you and those who are buying from you. And I think that is missed with people who don't fully understand what marketing.

Dom Hawes:
11:52

Is and they then label that demand generation to make it sound more weighty in the boardroom. But actually it's awareness, right?

Simon Carter:
11:58

It's all driven from awareness because if you live on the principle that people are not going to buy from someone they don't know and you're already selling to everyone who knows from you, then how are you going to grow leads? How are you going to grow your demand? You've got to grow that awareness to open that opportunity to have a chance of going the bottom line.

Dom Hawes:
12:18

Well there you go. That example Simon just gave us of how he buys car insurance, it's spot on. And of course it's exactly how I do it too. And I'm going to hazard a guess, it's how you get your insurance too. Or you did before, you just allowed your insurance to roll on year after year.

Dom Hawes:
12:34

Anyway, what I like about it is.

Dom Hawes:
12:35

It proves theories that have come up on several of our previous pods. You can't just do brand work and equally you can't just do performance work. The two have to work in concert. Brand delivers trust, performance delivers action. The two together deliver purchase. Yep, great. Okay, fine. But we all knew that. So I think the point I want to draw out here is a larger one about the state of marketing. Because this example shows more than just our response or behaviour as consumers. It helps us see the whole kit and caboodle of marketing today. I know I'm oversimplifying here, but broadly speaking we can split the marketing world into two halves. And one hand we have long termists who recognize the payoff power of awareness. They know brand is critical to any.

Dom Hawes:
13:22

Performance work they're going to do and.

Dom Hawes:
13:24

It'S likely that in their organisations marketing is very close to the centre of gravity. On the other hand, we have short termists, they focus on performance marketing, lead, gen, that sort of stuff and they have the dashboard metrics to prove that what they do works. Now it's likely that in their respective organizations marketing is a little bit further away from the centre of gravity. I would suggest it's probably leaning more towards sales. Now both of these sides appear on that compare the market style website that Simon referenced and I know which side I would prefer to bat for, but they are both in play. Both seem to be having success. So does it matter which side? If you want to call it that, you play for what your preferences like. Which approach should you subscribe to? Does it matter?

Dom Hawes:
14:09

Well, as I said at the top of this pod, as long as it's sustainable, I think the answer is no, it doesn't matter. But in any walk of life, a short term approach is, by its very definition, probably unsustainable. Because it's short term, it's not designed to sustain. And something that is unsustainable is the very epitome of something that is probably undervalued. Like a fashionable item of clothing. It's only good for the moment. Its destiny is to be discarded and replaced by the next item that comes into fashion. So to me, this short termist approach seems to lie at the very root of the problem facing so much of marketing today. Which is why marketing as a discipline is undervalued. But why is it like this? Surely everyone can see that a long term, more sustainable approach is better.

Dom Hawes:
14:58

So why are some firms aligned with a long term view and some have a completely opposite idea what the hell is going on? I think we better rejoin Simon and see if we can find some answers.

Dom Hawes:
15:09

So we've identified a little bit of the problem, but of course the issues as to why marketing is undervalued run a lot deeper than that. We need to find a better way of doing things and somehow find a better way of bringing a whole industry with us. What other areas do you think have contributed to the current malaise that we see?

Simon Carter:
15:30

Yeah, I think it's both top down and bottom up, really. So I think if you look at a lot of people who go into marketing, I'm not sure they go in, they see it as a career. I think they go in because they're looking for a job and the job is available and they go and do it. And then they may or may not learn what marketing is from being on the job. Whilst, yes, of course universities do now teach marketing as a degree, I don't think it's got the same value as accountancy or law or medicine, etcetera. So I don't think we're working well enough from the bottom up and then from top down as we've already talked about, Dom, I think that the reputation of marketing, I think is not as great as it can be.

Simon Carter:
16:08

I've specifically built my career about having a seat at the recently a seat at the board table because I think without it you are somewhat impotent. I really push back against sales and marketing directors in one role because I think sales and marketing is a very different profession. My view of a successful organization, again, as I said, I've worked for a number, is where it's a team, it's like a rugby team passing the ball from the wing to the centres, out to the wing, and somebody, anybody scores the try, really. And I think that works best where everybody respects each other at that board table and bring something different to the board table.

Simon Carter:
16:45

And I think too often if marketing isn't represented there, then the marketing voice, the brand voice, the interpretation of research voice is not heard and you end up with either a gut feel or an interpretation. Or back to the early point, the centre of gravity dominates. So if it's a sales led culture, it's all going to be about leads and about demand generation, when actually the challenge for that organization might be something different.

Dom Hawes:
17:09

There's a saying I used to bring a lot onto the show. Businesses get the marketing department they deserve and that depends on how they resource it. I opened this section of the show by talking about the malaise in marketing. There is no malaise in marketing. Marketing is just effective, as it always was. The practice of marketing, the difference for many businesses, how they structure and how they resource. The department that they call marketing, not marketing itself.

Simon Carter:
17:31

I'd go one step further because I think it's not just about the resource, I think it's the respect for that resource. So I've worked for businesses where they tick the box. Oh yes, we've got marketing, particularly a business that might be going through a sale or an acquisition, might be saying, yeah, we've got marketing tick move on, as opposed to those businesses that actually respect and listen to and are guided by the marketers in the room. So I think it's more than just having the resource, I think it's having the respect for that resource also.

Dom Hawes:
17:57

And today, many of the measurement criteria we use to evaluate marketing or marketing's.

Dom Hawes:
18:04

Effectiveness, they're pretty short term.

Simon Carter:
18:06

I think they are. I think you have lead and lag indicators clearly between the short term and the longer term. I think one of the great things I think about business today, and marketing in particular, is we do have KPI's, we do have the ability to measure anything that moves. I think the challenge is that we can't see the wood from the trees. I also think that when we look at things like attribution, I've worked for a couple of businesses where the whole focus has been on attribution. So what was it that drove this sale? The reality is that consumers, business or consumers, they don't buy based one, one push, they buy based on what they saw walking into work that day, what email they received, what social media they've clicked on, what they've read in the papers, etcetera.

Simon Carter:
18:46

So, attribution isn't a simple case of being able to allocate it to one particular piece of marketing activity. It is a combination, because that's how human beings react.

Dom Hawes:
18:54

And that's the 95 five rule, of course, that you're marketing while people are not in market, so that when they come in, they have the mental availability.

Dom Hawes:
19:01

To have you front of mind.

Simon Carter:
19:02

That's correct. I.

Dom Hawes:
19:03

So if you wanted to do things in a different way in an organization, do you think you need to seek.

Dom Hawes:
19:07

Permission from an organization to do that?

Simon Carter:
19:09

Back to my center of gravity analogy. I think that if a business doesn't want to have a marketing voice, then it either won't or it will be resistant to it. So I think you have to have from the top the recognition that marketing brings value and that organization is going to listen to what the marketeers bring to the party. So yes, there is definitely a permission in there, but I think the permission has to come from inside rather than from a textbook McKinsey paper that says, oh, we must do marketing. I just don't think that's insufficient.

Dom Hawes:
19:42

We also live in an age where everyone's view has to be brought into perspective. Like everyone has a voice, which is almost like anti expert culture. I mean, there are many expert marketers out there who are struggling to have their voice heard. How does a CMO or a senior marketer position themselves as an expert without coming across as arrogant?

Simon Carter:
20:01

I think it has to be customer led. It has to be about the marketer has to be the voice of the customer. The marketer has to understand the research, talk to customers, bring that to the party, and use that as the currency to have that conversation. But I think if you look at things like Martech, everybody is saying, oh, you know, Martech is, we all have to be in Martech. It's the future, and we have to invest loads of money in it. But why? What is it that is driving the Martech conversation? Is it about a better understanding of the customer, or is it about a perception of saving money?

Dom Hawes:
20:30

Yeah, the martech scene is pretty scary. It keeps growing more and more technology.

Simon Carter:
20:35

But what's driving it? Is it a belief that if I invest in a great marketing technology platform, I'm going to save money in my marketing? Or is it about saying I can actually get better insight on my customers.

Dom Hawes:
20:47

It could be visibility, actually. Just, I know where I'm spending my money and what's working. But we're back to the attribution, back.

Simon Carter:
20:52

To, back to the attribution problem.

Dom Hawes:
20:53

Quite often we find, or I hear on this podcast, people who are finding euphemisms for marketing terms actually like brand. They say, oh, don't use the word brand, use the word reputation, because that way the board will understand. But of course, that's a very one dimensional view of brand. And what we see on the podcast is often, actually, it's incumbent on the.

Dom Hawes:
21:12

CMO to educate the rest of the.

Dom Hawes:
21:13

Business to understand the power of marketing, not to dumb it down so that they don't need to understand it. But education takes a long time, can be very labour intensive, and can also be resisted by the rest of the organization.

Dom Hawes:
21:26

In your career, you must have had.

Dom Hawes:
21:28

To bring the rest of the business.

Dom Hawes:
21:30

Or certainly the rest of the C.

Dom Hawes:
21:31

Suite up to speed occasionally with what marketing is all about, of course. What's your approach?

Simon Carter:
21:35

Yeah, and I think it's all of the above, Dom, I think, but also, as I said earlier, I think it is quite often research led, customer led. So what you bring to the conversation is, well, this is what customers are telling us, this is what prospects are telling us, this is what the competition is doing with its customers. And that becomes the common currency. Because whether you're a salesperson, you're an operation person, a product person, the customer is the one commonality between us all. And as the marketing person, if you can own that voice of the customer, at least you're on the same wavelength. But I go back to what we've said before, I think that unless you have the permission to be able to have that conversation, to introduce that insight, then you're on the losing wicket.

Simon Carter:
22:15

If you are subservient to a sales director, all they want to do is grow leads, then you immediately behind the eight ball. You're not going to have a brand conversation, you're not going to have a reputation conversation, you're not going to have a product conversation. You're going to end up being, well, this is how we generate more leads, good or bad.

Dom Hawes:
22:33

There's something really important in that, actually, because the difference in approach between a marketer and a sales pro, the marketer always starts outward in as you say, you start with the customer and you work back into the organization. The sales leader is often working in, out. They're looking at what we need as a company, what leads we need, and therefore where we can get.

Simon Carter:
22:50

Absolutely.

Dom Hawes:
22:51

And that difference is pivotal.

Simon Carter:
22:52

Yeah. And I go back to my rugby analogy because I think that if you treat a business as a rugby team and you are the inside center and the prop and the wing are all equally valuable in being successful, and they work together. And I think it's the same organization, the sales lead, who's working inside out, and the marketing league who's working outside in, they're together. They recognize that all we've got to do is get that customer over the line, that ball over the trial line.

Dom Hawes:
23:19

Speaking of outside in, one of the superpowers of marketer is knowledge, is market understanding. How have you managed to build a position where you become the voice, the customer in the organizations where you've worked?

Simon Carter:
23:30

That, for me, is the value that marketers bring. So if I gave you two examples, probably from Thomas Cook. First one. Yeah, question for you. Probably Dom. So who do you think Cook's biggest competitors are? Or were?

Dom Hawes:
23:40

I can't say, teletex, because that would age me. Probably lastminute.com, comma, expedia, twoie.

Simon Carter:
23:47

Wrong. But yes, and that, and this is the serious bit because I think in the boardroom, that's. That's probably what the board was saying. Those who are competitors and what are they doing? Yeah, the reality is Thomas Cooksby's competitor were DF's sofas, Ford Motor company Magnet kitchens. Because generally, when you're going to book a holiday, it's about, have you got 500 pounds in your pocket? And are you going to spend that on a new kitchen, a new sofa, a new car or car repairs or whatever? Or are you going to spend on a holiday? And if the marketing has done a good enough job that you are on the long list, once you've sold to the customer, you need a holiday. There's a damn good chance they're going to come to your brand having made that decision.

Simon Carter:
24:30

But if they haven't made that decision yet, they still might think we're going to buy a new kitchen. Then you're not even in the running. I think the other example I will give you, we used to do a lot of customer satisfaction research at Thomas Cook, trying to do this for a podcast rather than visually. But if you can imagine a graph with two lines on it. And so we'd ask customers, so what was the quality of the check in at the airport? And one group of customers would say, oh, eight out of ten. And one group would say, four out of ten. So what was the quality of the food on the plane? Oh, seven out of ten. And three out of ten. And then what was the reception you got when you checked into the hotel? Oh, nine out of ten.

Simon Carter:
25:04

Six out of ten. And so if you can imagine these two lines, you've got one line that's sort of 20 percentage points above the other line for every single criteria you asked. What's the difference between the two lines? Dom?

Dom Hawes:
25:14

Nationality?

Simon Carter:
25:14

Weather.

Dom Hawes:
25:15

Weather.

Simon Carter:
25:16

So if the weather on your holiday had been good, you would mark every criteria 20 percentage points higher than if the weather had been a bit rubbish. And so again, as a marketer, when you're interpreting that results, it's so important to have that context to be able to make it. And that's why I think marketing has that seat at the table and has to be listened to and has to voice their views.

Dom Hawes:
25:40

It's really interesting.

Dom Hawes:
25:40

It reminds me of a podcast in our back catalogue, I think it was on marketing trek actually, called CSATs and NP's our garbage discuss where we looked at net promoter Score international. Net promoter score. A Brit would generally go, yeah, it was okay, and give it six. An American would go, hey, it was.

Dom Hawes:
25:56

Fantastic, and give it eight or nine.

Dom Hawes:
25:57

Because they're generally not quite as cynical as we are. And there was very stark national differences.

Dom Hawes:
26:02

I hadn't even thought about whether certainly for a holiday.

Simon Carter:
26:05

I think if you come back, you say something, how was your holiday? The first thing you say, oh, the weather was great or the weather was right.

Dom Hawes:
26:11

That's true.

Simon Carter:
26:11

And certainly if you're selling holidays, being able to guarantee the weather is a key part of it.

Dom Hawes:
26:17

So the value then of the marketer is being able to contextualize results. Context, but also being able to identify where the competition for that pound is.

Simon Carter:
26:27

Yeah, absolutely. And also in terms of building up the USP. So what, you know, so we haven't really talked about what is marketing. It is about that content is about selling that experience. It is about getting that customer to visualize what would happen with your product. And it doesn't have to be holidays. And I think that what good marketers are good at is about understanding content and be able to use that content and turn it into the language that a customer understands and is in the market for. And that's the bit that we bring.

Dom Hawes:
26:58

And once again, unicorn, as we come back to our old chestnut on this pod, how many times have we heard this? It all depends on whether you are an out to in organization or an in to out organization. Now for anyone new to the terms out to in or some call it outside in organisations are those built around the voice of the customer. They listen and communicate that information back to every nook and cranny of the business. And price, product, place, promotion are all dominated by a unifying desire to create happy customers. Customers. These are long termists, the brand builders, and these are the organizations where marketing is either the centre of gravity or pretty much as close to the centre as it can be. Because marketing is the voice of the customer. Into out organizations are those which seek.

Dom Hawes:
27:50

To satisfy their own needs first.

Dom Hawes:
27:53

They're sometimes called inside out too. They are the build it and they will come merchants. And as Simon pointed out, they're more likely to be sales lessen. The focus here is short term, the number of leads required and by when those leads are needed, and the tactics that are needed in order to generate them. And I think that fundamentally answers the question that I was posing previously, why some organizations are seemingly with us. That is what I deem to be the right way to go about marketing, and why some organizations are, well, they're just not on our side.

Dom Hawes:
28:24

But it does also seem to come.

Dom Hawes:
28:26

Down to Simon's last point, which is that we as marketers need a voice at the top table without being able to give leadership and direction to our organizations. Our fate is to become the executors of promotions, the one remaining p of the four P's that so many see as our solitary role. And I know where I stand on that. All you need to do is listen.

Dom Hawes:
28:47

To episode 80 again and you will find out.

Dom Hawes:
28:49

Okay, that's it for part one of this part, and we do leave it at a critical juncture. When we return in part two, I want to pick up on what we just raised about leadership and how our industry represents itself. And Simon has some critical thinking here that I know you need to hear. So make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you do that, the next episode is going to appear in your feed like magic and you will not miss it. See you next time. You have been listening to Unicorny. I'm your host, Don Hawes. Nichola Fairley is the series producer, Laura Taylor McAllister is the production assistant, Pete Allen is the editor, and Peter Powell is our scriptwriter.